Duratec won't start.

[Expat]

Bought an R300 last week. Picked it up on Wednesday and when I stopped to refuel it refused to start again. It took about ten attempts and then off we went as though nothing had happened.

Engin is presumably a Duratec 2.0l producing 175 HP. It has refused to start on two subsequent occasions, one of which was with a cold engin, which seems excessive. Symptoms are complete lack of response from motor when cranked. Very occasionaly while cranking it has sounded as though one cylinder was trying to fire for about half a second then this stops.

Keep trying and eventually it starts

The handbook downloaded from the net doesn't help – even the picture of a 175 installation doesn't look quite the same as mine.

I've tried waggling all the connectors I can get at but this appears to make no difference.

Any ideas? Could it be the immobiliser? What is an immobiliser anyway? And what is it supposed to do?

[SM25T]

Sounds like you are not switching off the immobiliser before trying to start the car .... so no fuel pump ! You may have a fob that needs to be waved under the dash to switch off the flashing LED warning lamp on the dash ?

[john aston]

On my (older) Duratec car the car will not turn over until immobiliser deactivated . And that has always been erratic- key in , wait might work. Or not. Key in waggle wire to ignition might work. Or not . Bloody awful device- any more effective alternatives that would keep insurer sweet ? (I'd chuck the whole immobiliser away if it weren't for insuarnce requirement) 

[Jonathan Kay]

What is an immobiliser anyway? And what is it supposed to do?

It's there to add security by preventing or deterring theft. It interferes with the fuel supply or ignition, and it's inherent that there's no easy way of bypassing it.

There are several different sorts on 7s. See below.

Many insurance policies (such as John's) depend on having one. They're rated by a "Thatcham" level.

...

As above.

All: Would the Easy Start trick help to confirm that diagnosis?

Can you add a photo of your immobiliser fob to make sure that we're talking about the right one?

But there are other causes of intermittent failure to fire while cranking. Measure the voltage across the battery with the ignition on and then while cranking.

Jonathan

 

 

[Garry7]

Not sure if this helps but:

My 2012 Roadsport 175 has a tear drop shaped fob that needs to be waved in proximity to the wire loop surrounding the ignition barrel - there is a clear click followed by the fuel pump buzzing once it has been recognised.

The old CC factory courtesy car (2012 R300) had a similar fob that had to be placed in a tray on top of the centre console in front of the gear knob - similiar process once recognised.

[John Vine]

What year is your R300?  As JA says, some Duratecs (the older ones?) won't crank at all until the immobiliser is deactivated. Certainly my 2008 car is like that. 

So, perhaps your problem isn't to do with the immobiliser.  If that's the case, I'd suspect fuelling.  Is the pump priming OK when you switch on?  If not, I'd be looking first for a dodgy power connection or earth. 

JV

[Expat]

Many, many thanks to one and to all for very useful replies.

SM25T: Yes I have a fob to wave around under the dash, but no LED of any colour that I have been able to discover. It is certainly not on the dash. This (the dash) can be seen on the handbook downloaded in pdf format from:

http://uk.Caterhamcars.com/

mine is identical to that shown in Fig.3 on page 11 apart from switch 6 being missing. No LED!

John Aston: French insurers don't seem to be bothered if one has an immobiliser or not they just charge a fortune. Let me have details of how to get rid of it and I'll follow the instructions to the letter.

JK: Photo of fob on:

http://www.scorpionauto.com/home/products/STERLINGEXCEL

this seems to fit the bill, but ,although they talk about a red LED I can't find one.

Will try to measure battery voltage this weekend. The problem with digital voltmeters is that they don't follow the actual voltage very quickly. Will have to unearth an oscilloscope!

Garry7: My car is also of 2012 vintage. First registered here 28/12/2012; Looks as though I shall have to practice my waving and/or find a LED. Will listen out for the click. Fuel pump runs, but engine then starts. Will have to remember to listen out for lack of fuel pump being followed by no start if you see what I mean.

John Vine: See above.Mine cranks like mad, but I  don't know if the immobiliser is active or not. Where is the fuel pump? If it were an earth problem would there not be problems with the engine cutting out on tke road?

[Jonathan Kay]

http://www.scorpionauto.com/images/products/STERLINGEXCEL_1_zoom.jpg

Will have to unearth an oscilloscope!

:-)

Jonathan

[tbird]

Fuel pump on mine in top of fuel tank  LH side of boot . (well not on top but inside, protruding slightly :-) )

Already been said by Gary7 , but just to reiterate, on the CSR (2.3 Duratec) the process is (obviously I do have LED on Dash) 

turn on battery, (I d have an FIA cut out)

red immobiliser flashing

turn ignition key to ON (led still flashing)

wave tear drop tag near ignition barrel

red led goes out and you should hear a click as immobiliser resets, but more obvious is a buzzing from rear left corner of boot (this is petrol pump cutting in)

after about 10 seconds buzzing stops (fuel primed)

hit the start button and she fires up (needs very delicate throttle handling at this point, best not to touch throttle until she fires then just a little blip and then she is fine to tick over but dont depress throttle while actualy trying to start)

DVM not as good as old analogue meters for response but should easily see drop at battery while cranking, if it drops too low can cause ECU to misbehave and immobiliser to re set

 

[john aston]

Expat - you flatter me by assuming I know how to remove it ! All I know is how to ask Carl at the Auto Centre to do it, sadly ...

[John Vine]

Mine cranks like mad, but I  don't know if the immobiliser is active or not. Where is the fuel pump? If it were an earth problem would there not be problems with the engine cutting out on tke road?

I don't know whether the immobiliser on a 2012 Duratec operates in the same way as a 2008 one (that is, preventing cranking until deactivated).   The Sterling website talks about a red LED so I'm puzzled you don't seem to have one.  Is it incorporated in the speedo, perhaps?

If the pump primes every time you turn on the ignition, a power/earth problem there seems unlikely.  Do you have keyless ignition, plus a q/d wheel and no steering lock?

It's difficult to diagnose from a distance, but refusal to start is generally down to injectors not firing or no spark.  Try removing a sparkplug.  Is it wet with petrol?  Can you smell petrol? If so, the injectors are firing.

Earth the plug to a suitable part of the engine, crank the engine and check for a spark.  If there's no spark, check that the ignition relay is firmly pressed in (second one down on the fuse block?). If there's a spark and no fuel, I'd be looking at the ECU earth intially.   

More remote causes include the crank position sensor (next to the crank pulley, at about 8 o'clock).  Check that it's secure and firmly plugged in.

And, as JK says, check battery voltage when cranking (although a good cranking performance suggests the battery is up to scratch). 

If these basic checks don't point to the problem, you'll need to take the car to someone with diagnostic equipment that can read fault codes.

JV

 

 

 

 

 

[Expat]

Well many thanks again. Looks like my weekend is now fully booked .I shall soon be the world expert on immobilisers in Sevens.

All I need to know now is how to fit a red LED. It would make things so much easier. Maybe its already there? Does anybody have any idea where they may have hidden it? Can't see it in the speedo. Maybe its so faint it can't be seen. All the other lights are very faint and can only be seen with the garage doors shut and the lights off! I don't want to try to run the engine with the doors closed. I might go deaf.

I shall also look at the fuel pump, the ignition and a few other things. If none of this leads anywhere I shall have to try to explain what is going on to my local Ford dealer!

Many thanks especially to JK for the picture. I would have put it up myself, but I can't remember how!

tbird: Your description of starting up exactly matches my experience - when it works. The problem is remembering what happened when it doesn't.

Wish me luck

PS Who is going to be first to open an "Auto Center" (that doesn't shut for August) in this neck of the woods?

[SM25T]

Where are you ... help may be closer than you think.

[sjmmarsh]

The red LED is normally a push fit into a rubber grommet near the centre of the dash - normally between the oil pressure and water temp gauges. It sometimes gets pushed into the dash and disappear behind it. 

Steve

[Expat]

SM25T:

I'm about 20 km north of St Tropez as the crow flies (it's about 40 if you stick to the road!) and roughly 10km NW of Draguignan. Caterham Competition is in Alès, which is 280 km away, but they are shut for August.Well this is France and their answering machine did wish me a happy holiday!

sjmmarsh:

raised my hopes there for a minute; even went to look at the car as I have been driving around with half the tonneau over the passenger seat and that side of the dash is not very visible. No joy I'm afraid; still no sign of a red LED.

 

[SM25T]

Ouch ... you really are at the edge of the known world ! Hopefully another reader may know someone closer, now we know where you are in exile !

[Jonathan Kay]

Look forward to hearing what you discover working through those tests.

The point about Easy Start is that it shoots an easily ignitable gas into the intake, and if it then fires it suggests the problem was fuel starvation. In your situation that could be caused by several different things, including the immobiliser. I think that's worth doing. (I'd only recommend using this for diagnosis, never for repeatedly starting "difficult" engines, unless you know what you're doing.)

You're going to measure the cranking voltage, and I'd also have another go at the same thing by trying to jump start it off another car running at 3,000 rpm. 

Jonathan

PS: The last leg of our bike trip is Moustiers to St Raphael, but I'll only have bike tools! :-)

 

[anthonym]

Conge everywhere. I just spoke with 

Ford Azur Draguignan Concessionnaire

Concession de Draguignan - rte Lorgues, 83300 DRAGUIGNAN 

04 94 50 55 00

since I toured there last year but one - spent a week camped on Cote D'azur broken down; knocked the sump off, lost all my oil - on a Friday evening of course.

explained I have a Duratec engined Ctareham and need half an hours' diagnostic help. Interestingly the response was no problem, except not until 27 Aout. Conge of course. 

Just a trick I use on tour, approach the biggest dealer I can find, last time was Mitsubishi near Tarbes - no charge and then Ford at Mens a tiny charge. Sevens being relatively simply I always start by asking if they have any mechanics. "Bien sure ..." they say, looking at the Seven thoughtfully ;-)

Then of course there is your "auto club" .. "car won't start.." they can be very quick to fault find and fix if it's trivial (for them) like immobilisers - and being at home the wait is no problem.

Anthony

 

[Smiffy69]

This sounds like a similar problem I had.... Car would refuse to start / slow turn over and also sometimes just stop mid Blat!? It turned out to be two things. BTW I have a 2010 R300 duratec with the scorpion immobiliser where you wave the fob around the centre consol to deactivate.  ( this is where the antenna is).

The first problem on it just cutting out was the immobiliser earth. CC had just used the screw that mounted the immobiliser to the bulk head with out scraping off any paint.  Also this had worked a bit lose so untimately ended in a bad / intermittent earth.  As soon as I re homed this to the motor wiper earth point the random cut outs ceased.  ( worth a  look)

the second issue was due to a duff battery ( Banner) only 2 years old and original fit with car when I built it. I tested this off load by disconnecting from the car and measuring terminal voltage after a full charge on a battery conditioner. The result was that the terminal voltage was dropping by about .2v every 6 hours. I.e not holding its charge.   So I got  a new one and the speed the engine turns over now is so much less laboured ..... I may be as bold to say it's now spritely.

So my symptoms sound similar to yours and this is how I solved it.

 

hope it helps

 

 

 

[Damo V]

If not battery my money on crank sensor

[Expat]

Update on Duratec non starter.

I think I have eliminated the immobiliser.

Leaving the fob/transponder in the kitchen the following sequence of events takes place:

Insert key – Position 0 - nothing appears to happen

Turn to - Position 1 – nothing appears to happen

Turn to - Position 2 – nothing appears to happen

Turn to - Position 3 - nothing appears to happen (Let go and key jumps back to position 2)

 

Push “START” button once – Lights on dashboard (except direction indicators, hazard button and alternator/brake warning button) all light up. Pump can be heard priming.

A high pitched whine (around 10 kHz) from the electronic ignition suggests that that is working OK.

Push “START” button again – Nothing changes. Engine does not crank.

Push “START” button a third time – Ignition switches off, all the lights go out.

Shift lights all light up for about half a second and then go out when “START” is pushed for the first time..

Incidentally why are there six LEDs here? Approximate layout is: O   O O O O O

Currently they all seem to be set for about 3600 rpm. Which is a little curious except that it corresponds to the Autoroute speed limit (130 kph) in top. Haven't yet worked out what the one on the left is for.

If immobiliser transponder is fetched from kitchen and waved under the dash near the key then second push of “START” gets the engine to crank and, usually, start and run normally..

I have checked the battery voltages which are as follows:

“No”load - 12.54 V

Ignition on – 12.24 V

Cranking – 9.6 V

Engine running – 13.44 V (Climbs to)

this seems to about right so I don't suspect the battery or its connections.

 

The probable cause would seem to be a dodgy earth, connector or transducer somewhere, finding which which will probably occupy my waking hours for the foreseeable future. Where do I look for the crank sensor?

What publication am I likely to find in France that might tell me about the Duratec? Which model Ford is it used in?

Many thanks to you all for your interest and your assistance. If I ever identify the cause with any degree of certainty I will post details on TechTalk so watch this space!

 

[Jonathan Kay]

Cranking – 9.6 V

Some ECUs will drop out at that sort of voltage... is the residual problem still unreliable starting and nothing else?

Jonathan 

[Damo V]

http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=155758

 

http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=155758

[Expat]

JK: Only problem that I'm aware of is failure to start on some occasions. Last time I had this problem I must have tried at least six times, with a suitable pause between attempts. On the seventh attempt the engine started as though nothing had happened and then ran faultlessly for about 50 minutes until I switched it off. The battery voltage must have been well down by the time it started so I think the only cause can be a poor connection, earth or otherwise, 

So far multiple attempts to start have always resulted in success. My only fear is that one day it won't and I shall be left stranded with a flat battery.

Damo V: Looks as though I'm off to my local Ford dealer on Monday for a spare sensor and bit of plastic.

[tbird]

Expat how often does this occur, if happening quite often could you acquire / borrow a new, ideally more powerful, battery, if fault disappears then it would suggest battery, if not you have at least ruled out battery.

Tim