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Derek Batty
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Prison iom

hi just watched five mutinies of prog about iom prison it’s like a bloody holiday camp , had to switch over 

and I’m the prat paying taxes to keep them ,,they get better food than hospital paitients , they are supposed to be punished   The country inc uk is  getting to soft , they are  criminals so punish the bastards not moly Codel them ,

derek 

TomB
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I take it you’re not interested in rehabilitating prisoners who may only be offending due to long term problems eg drug dependency, mental illness, childhood trauma or PTSD? To what extent prison rehabilitate damaged people or punish is a debate that’s gone on for years. If we want prisoners not to reoffend upon release, society need to try and help these individuals if they can and if they are willing.

I’m not for one minute suggesting Rose West or Ian Huntley should  be released, but the men who repeatedly steal or burgle to fund a drug habit in a viscous cycle that sees them in and out of prison via a spell living on streets need help to break that cycle, whether that’s by education, medical help or some other treatment. We can’t just lock people away and throw the key away, that’s inhumane except in the worst cases like the two named above. 

Jonathan Kay
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ITV News on the programme.

I was wondering when you'd spot that.

What are the typical periods of incarceration? (There's some pretty good evidence around short sentences.)

Jonathan

PS: Well said, TomB.

PPS: Our new Prime Minister is flirting with Laura Norder. To no-one's surprise. 

Derek Batty
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Sorry Tom but I pay my taxes ,and hope done a good job bringing up my three kids and lovely nine grand kids 

yes try to help poss four hours in class plus four punishment , it’s hard to decide to split drug adicts ect ,

put it this way if a drug adict stole your seven then wrote it of , then robbed your house trashed it ,,stole all your personal things , and poss items of your late family  or relatives , then sold them for peanuts for more drugs cos the poor sod cannot help it  would you then say !,,O poor sods on drugs let’s help him ,, 

sorry give him a bloody hard time sod the criminals,, time to think about the poor victims who have had a bad do 

they are in Gail to be punished so give them a hard time so they won’t want to come back ,

derek 

Jonathan Kay
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... time to think about the poor victims who have had a bad do...

How does harsh punishment of offenders help their victims? 

... so give them a hard time so they won’t want to come back ,...

I think that deterrence from repeat offending is one of the most important purposes of punishment. That's why I'd like the choice between punishments to be based on what we know works. 

Jonathan

Derek Batty
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Hi Johnathan I now a few lads who worked on the new prison , they have a flood light Astro turf foot ball pitch and it’s like a five star hotel as some say ,  to me they are prisoners to be punished not bloody moly coddled , yes I am straight spoken with poss a few views which may not go down well to some ,,,but was brought up to speak my mind  which I think I do ?? 

I must admit I bow to your superior , knolage and common sense which some times eludes me   , but I speak my mind as best I can and hope it’s ok

derek  

must admit though wish had learned to spell but think most people get my drift 

 

 

 

 

Jonathan Kay
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... to me they are prisoners to be punished not bloody moly coddled... 

Regardless of what works in practice? I think that my opinions and preferences are pretty unimportant compared to that. 

Jonathan

Derek Batty
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Johnathan your opinions are always valied and poss make more sense than mine 

Derek 

Jonathan Kay
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The reason that I asked about periods of incarceration is that both the alternatives and the available evidence vary with that.

For short sentences alternatives are both cheaper (NB comment about taxpayers above) and cause lower rates of subsequent reoffending. That's up to 6 months incarceration, and probably also up to 12 months.

Above that I'm not so sure. 

And to my surprise restorative justice seems to help.

And when you get to the possibility of the state killing people it's very hard to find high quality evidence. But it's considerably  more expensive than keeping the offender locked up. (Yes, I did mean it that way round.) And it's very hard to find any evidence that it's effective by comparing countries or states of the USA. And juries don't like convicting when they know the offender will be killed; that's one of the reasons the UK changed policy. NB none of those arguments rely on the need to avoid killing the wrong person.

And the answer to the question I asked about what happened when the IoM stopped hitting people isn't clear. But there's a comment in a UK Parliamentary debate which suggests that the rate of the relevant crimes didn't increase.

Jonathan

TomB
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if a drug adict stole your seven then wrote it of , then robbed your house trashed it ,,stole all your personal things , and poss items of your late family  or relatives , then sold them for peanuts for more drugs cos the poor sod cannot help it  would you then say !,,O poor sods on drugs let’s help him

Not initially, I'd want some punishment to be applied, as I'm only human and think that would be a reasonable response.  However, if during a trial, it was revealed the person came from a broken home or was abused as child and joined the army to escape only to suffer PTSD after fighting in a sandy place of our choosing, struggled upon discharge and ended up homeless, vulnerable on the streets etc etc, as a human being with some empathy to my fellow man, I'd want him to have some help in prison to try and mend this broken man.  Upon release, in an ideal world, he would be fully rehabilitated and able to contribute to society.  However, we all know it doesn't work out that way.  That's because the justice system is as politicized as schools or hospital, with governments of various colours and leanings flipping between policies to garner support.  Funny how on the run up to a probable election PM BoJo has announced more prison officers and funding for the police. Almost as if he's trying to look tough on law and order for the Tory voters.....

 

Some prisoners can never be released, they are either too dangerous or their crimes too heinous. But does that mean the prison population in for fraud, tax evasion, car theft or other 'lesser' crimes shouldn't be treated humanly?   I guess that's why 'prison' covers a wide spectrum of facility, from open prisons with a less strict regime, to somewhere like Broadmoor or Ashford Special Hospital, to accommodate the requirements of a spectrum of individual from the local burglar to the like of Ian Brady.  

   

 

Derek Batty
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Hi Jonathan 

Sorry I am not very good some times At putting my point ,, my way of looking at it ,is yes for lesser crimes try and educate but give them a hard time while they are in prison , don’t forget they are criminals , there are some we may be able to help , but others no chance , and sorry ,Johnathan to me people like , the moors murderer and others in the same class , they should be given the death penalty , people say it’s barbaric but just look at the crimes they have committed , and I don’t se why  it should be more expensive to carry out execution , the only people who drag it out and make thousands are the lawyers , 

yes it is hard for the family’s of the people who are executed , but as I say for once think of the victims , and the families and kids left behind , when the person who committed the crime could be out in poss 20 years , and poss go on to commit more crimes 

sorry JK  we all have our own thoughts on things poss you are right,,  as mine are a bit poss drastic , but when you look at the tv now the crimes are getting worse , forget all the crap about crime coming down load of bullshit , 

yes the iom abolished the birch because the powers at be are a soft load of ??? , it may do some good or not I don’t no ,, I now a couple of lads who had the birch , and must admit , don’t now if it made any diff or not , but it poss did to the people who the crime was against 

sorry don’t think their is a simple answere to the problem 

but I am cast iron sure it is down to the upbringing of your kids ,,as now so many broken marriages and so many different fathers  is the problem , but that is just the way of the world now 

Derek

all the best Jonathan , enjoy your cycling ,    PS have you had a go on an electric mountain bike , there great but bit expensive