Alternator failed? (NO!) On tour again, thanks for help, Solved K Series R500

[anthonym]

I am (was?) en route to Portofino 2018, alternator charging appears to be intermittent. 

Brise alternator I think. 

Big question is whether this is the end of my trip or can be fixed in quick time. 

Could it be a loose connection after all that messing with the fuel power feed? 

I have about 12.5 to 13 volts; battery warning came on at 11.5 volts. So it has gone up. Watching the Stack volts display it seems to wobble between battery alone and alternator - but no sign of 14.2 volts.

Anthony - halted for the night in Guillestre, France. The trailer and tow car are about two hours away.

I have a spare battery with me.

I have a lithium booster battery with me and various tools etc,

I have a battery charger with me; I will probably us it,

Currently in a bar ... while the engine cools.

update: in hotel room to search blatchat for similar trouble. I had a quick look and cannot see any obviously loose wires, I gave the two wires to the aternator connects a tug, they seem firm. Battery voltage 13.1 volts, start engine, drops to 12 something - i'e no alternator worky.  Apparently there is an auto electrician 15km up the road starts 8.30 am. Also other calls will be made in the morning, but ... time is the issue. Maybe a call to Brise as well, to see if they have anything to suggest roadside wise. The "fan" belt is tight etc. 

SOLUTION added much later, for anyone with alternator problem finding this thread:

speaking of future alternator problems searchers for my car, a K R500 EU2, things you may like to know:  

the replacement Brise as can be seen from the photos further down this thread (somewhere) required the use of BOTH adjuster brackets bolted together because the "long" one is too short. 

Second, the reason a long adjuster bracket is required is because the Apollo oil hoses run between the engine block and the alternator. 

Thirdly, this means the alternator belt as standard size per Caterham (confirmed today by phone 5PK672 meaning 672 mm long is TOO SHORT. I have fitted an emergency 4PK718 (718 mm) one that is too narrow (only four channels) and really is too long, but works; it is all the local supplier had that was even close. The 672 is short by about 5mm, but add some for the lip you have to get it over when using the Brise over size pulley, so I reckon 10mm extra = 682 is about the minimum size for the (yet to be acquired) new belt.

Removing the original alternator involved removing the exhaust side silencer (I have a rear one as well), three primaries and a diagonal bolted on chassis rail. 

It was not apparent to the eye, but the B+ cable was BROKEN at the connector. So the alternator was NOT FAULTY. I replaced it anyway because I so desired it.

The 12v IGnition wire was also VERY hard and while no apparent symptoms it cannot have been far off failing to deliver 12v. I am replacing all the wiring to the alternator, all the way back to the IG connection and the battery, so excluding any existing wiring.  

Hindsight: I should have tested the alternator straight from the B+ terminal. None of the garages involved did that, nor me. Heck, with that knowledge even a roadside fix/bodge would have been possible. I was worried about getting burned. So I could have done the test with the engine cold.

 

https://www.lotus7.club/forum/techtalk/failing-alternator-k-series

[SM25T]

15km in the morning has to be worth a try for a quick fix.

[Stephen Long]

hope you get it fixed

 

please keep us posted

 

longy

[anthonym]

trying to remember how to extract the alternator from an R500K with an Apollo. 

[Paul Mason]

The way I took my alternator out was front 2 primaries off (access and to allow the top mount bolt to be removed) then forward and up (having taken the expansion tank off, though not removing pipework)

[mark_w]

Exhaust primaries 1 & 2 maybe 3 need to come off to get to the bolts and for the alternator to come out , fingers crossed you get to do the tour

 

[SM25T]

Don't disturb the Apollo hoses. Leave the belt around them when you extract the alternator.

[Jonathan Kay]

I have about 12.5 to 13 volts; battery warning came on at 11.5 volts. So it has gone up. Watching the Stack volts display it seems to wobble between battery alone and alternator - but no sign of 14.2 volts.

Battery voltage 13.1 volts, start engine, drops to 12 something - i'e no alternator worky. 

All of those measurements using the Stack voltmeter?

• Do you have a multimeter that you can use to test voltage across the battery terminals?
• Does it agree?
• Is the warning light now on all the time at rest and regardless of the speed that the engine is running?
• What was the voltage across the battery terminals at 3,000 rpm the last time that you tested it before this episode?

I had a quick look and cannot see any obviously loose wires, I gave the two wires to the aternator connects a tug, they seem firm.

I'd do the same for all of the wires at the battery terminals and the earths to the engine block etc: inspect, wiggle, disconnect, clean and reconnect.

What sort of battery, how old and is it the sort that can be topped up?

With a jump start off another vehicle and both batteries fully charged I would guess that you can run 15 km on ignition and fuel pump and other electrics only as needed for safety, but work out in advance what you'll do if it dies on the way.

Good luck

Jonathan

 

[anthonym]

Garage put meter across battery, standard tests, alternator no worky. And no fixy until next weeky. 

So. Hours on the phone around local garages looking for same/next day deliveries. No luck. 

Brise are shipping me a new unit with wiring. Going to replace all the alternator wires regardless, given the age of my loom, also means the car will be wired for stardard as well as Brise, same as when I fit the new loom.

Concluded no chance to get to Portofino in it. IF I had only the GB Titanium exhaust I might try, but the enormous Swiss thing (of beauty fabricated by Powerspeed) I have seen that being fitted and I am concerned I may not be physically strong enough to do a "roadside" refit if I have to remove the primaries. The collector/muffler connect is very tight and simply I do not wish to experiment away from the comfort of either home or a garage where time/skill is not an issue.

It MAY be the brushes are worky/no worky.

I MAY try to drive it the two hours back to the trailer, or get a taxi to the trailer, or a recovery truck to trailer. I finally remembered that last time this happened (to the existing alternator was at that time the new replacement) I got from Cuneo to Aosta (both Italy) which the route planner says is 2:17. Trailer is two hours away (route planner). Also the battery this time will be fully recharged and I have a spare, granted one of those half size ones.  

Looong chat with the ever helpful and supportive Tim Brise  and now I have at least a feel for the array of uncertainties that can exist in the charging system, not least one nearly 20 years old as mine is, the good old "replace everything" approach is in play. 

We reckon it's over five years since the Italian Job, possibly significantly longer and as usual with R500K the primaries are really a bit close to the alternator as is everything. So maybe it's just fried a bit, as maybe the wires too

(EU2 Magnetti Marelli part number 63341239/63321239 (do not know the difference) HC-Cargo.com part number 112202

and

Brise part number ALT-5020 and Brise part number 2805 80mm  five groove ally pulley, and Brise part number 50-12158 three wire connector (this does not replace the "B post" thick brown wire.   

I am noticing how I have had this range of trouble since being stuck in a traffic jam for an hour, no airflow, engine running. Usually I never go near such things. In fact this is twice I have set out with a destination and time scale and twice run in to trouble.

I would have liked to be able to test if the alternator itself is faulty (I now believe it is), but that requires a meter on the B terminal and the engine running, the other probe on the batter +. I do not fancy putting my hands that close to hot primaries, or indeed any primaries with the engine running - and that's if it is even possible to get a meter probe in there.  

It appears I do not have an alternator warning light, but I do have a Stack low battery voltage warning (set to 11.5 volts): it's very red and frightened the carp out of me when I thought it was the oil light (again, old story when the sump fell off), then the Stack message "low battery warning" appeared. Phew. 

So, it's all about the adventure. 

Anthony

 

[Jonathan Kay]

Sorry about the trip.

Hope it's all working as soon as possible.

Jonathan

[Mcalvert]

Realy sorry to hear about your woes.  No help for now but having said that the primaries were a bit near the alternator, might it be worth having them lagged / coated?  In the early days with my Xflow, I used to fry an alternator about every other trackday.  However, having -

- Lagged the primaries to reduce the radiated heat

- Fitted a slightly larger alternator pulley to reduce the peak rotation speed

 - Fitted a nylon alternator bracket

I don't think I've had a failure in the following 12 or so years. 

Some / all of these might be relevent when it comes to your long term solution?

Good luck with the fix and hope you can get going again soon...

 

[anthonym]

aha! Sir Calvert.. funny you should mention that. I had quite forgotten about such things. Granted my lagging has long burned off, I am considering (wish list) that ceramic coating stuff that has appeared in recent years, actually to protect the passenger footwell, but yes now you mention it alternator and starter etc. Basically let the heat begone... elsewhere. Brise are sending a pulley (ready fitted) that has the effect you describe, I think.   Tell me more about the "nylons for electric things" please? EDIT: sorry now see you wrote bracket. 

All this is a lesson  for me about when I think of doing something (like replace the alternator 'cos it's getting old), do it sooner rather than later. I've wanted a Brise for yonks because of the extra space offered betwixt it and the chassis, which currently is 1.5 millimetres. 

I just had a chat with TCS (Swiss RAC) and they have offered to trailer me and the car whether from the hotel or from wherever I break down if I attempt the  trip back to my tow car/trailer. This is a discretionary offer because I am not at a workshop where they can validate I have in fact broken down... !!! I'm still struggling with this, despite their discretionary generosity, why would someone away in another country call them if the car still works?!! (if readers less naive than me would append a list please?)

Anthony

[anthonym]

aahh, sorry I misread nylon bracket for nylon cover or something

[anthonym]

 Worky w orky 

[anthonym]

   Near La Mure / Vizille region South of  Grenoble Raphael is the man.Meticulous.noble. 

[SM25T]

Shiny new alternator. Good news.

[Mcalvert]

Can't help but smile at "Prat breakdown services though..."

Hope you're back on the road very soon.

It's of no use for your R500 but in case this thread surfaces in future for a Xflow owner having alternator problems, the uprated bracket I referred to is a John Wilcox designed part here:  http://www.wilcoxengines.co.uk/xflow_parts.htm

 

[Jim 123]

I see that in your first picture in #14 there is a bolt missing from the engine mount into the chassis rail. Hopefully your photo was of work in progress?

[anthonym]

yes it's work in progress 

an entire chassis rail is also missing.. 

well spotted though :-)

[anthonym]

rolling on the floor laughing here, I had not realised the garage is "Prat Breakdown" services!! 

thank you Michael... :-)

[anthonym]

speaking of future alternator problems searchers for my car, a K R500 EU2, things you may like to know:  

the replacement Brise as can be seen from the photo above (somewhere) required the use of BOTH adjuster brackets bolted together because the "long" one is too short.

Second, the reason a long adjuster bracket is required is because the Apollo oil hoses run between the engine block and the alternator.

Thirdly, this means the alternator belt as standard size per Caterham (confirmed today by phone 5PK672 meaning 672 mm long is TOO SHORT. I have fitted an emergency 4PK718 (718 mm) one that is too narrow (only four channels) and really is too long, but works; it is all the local supplier had that was even close. The 672 is short by about 5mm, but add some for the lip you have to get it over when using the Brise over size pulley, so I reckon 10mm extra = 682 is about the minimum size for the (yet to be acquired) new belt.

Removing the original alternator involved removing the exhaust side silencer (I have a rear one as well), three primaries and a diagonal bolted on chassis rail. 

It was not apparent to the eye, but the B+ cable was BROKEN at the connector. So the alternator was NOT FAULTY. I replaced it anyway because I so desired it.

The 12v IGnition wire was also VERY hard and while no apparent symptoms it cannot have been far off failing to deliver 12v. I am replacing all the wiring to the alternator, all the way back to the IG connection and the battery, so excluding any existing wiring.  

Hindsight: I should have tested the alternator straight from the B+ terminal. None of the garages involved did that, nor me. Heck, with that knowledge even a roadside fix/bodge would have been possible. I was worried about getting burned. So I could have done the test with the engine cold.

should I put all this as a "solution found" edit to the op ?

Anthony