CtrMint Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 I'm currently sat in the garage trying to start the 420. She's not playing ball.I did drive the car yesterday and she drove fine, although for the first 10mins the temp gauge was bouncing around. It did settle down. After the drive I removed the submarine connections and reseated. This afternoon she won't fire, initially turned over but wouldn't go. I do think I left the key in the ignition overnight. I judged pulled it out without really focusing.Assuming she's flat, I've tried a booster pack, but she still will not fire.Ive completely removed the submarine connections now just in case.im pretty confident the booster is good. So simple case of a flat or something more complex? The banner battery is pretty flat, less than 7v according to the multi meter. Guess it's going need a replacement, I believe they aren't the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadsport06 Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 Put the battery on charge, it might be fine to fire up with the booster. The battery isn't a bad one, it is the capacity that isn't great with it being small so needs a conditioner or turn off on the kill switch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevehS3 Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 Hi Mark, As a first step I would put the Banner on a CTEK or equivalent conditioning trickle charger. It will take a few days to recharge so leave it on as long as you can then see if it will start. If you have fully flattened the Banner it won't have don't it any good but hopefully it will recover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted January 19, 2020 Member Share Posted January 19, 2020 Check the fluid levels in the cells.Assuming she's flat, I've tried a booster pack, but she still will not fire.Did it turn over? What was the battery voltage with the booster battery connected at rest and minimum during cranking?Have you got another vehicle or battery from which you can try to jump start?Measure those voltages (and at 3,000 rpm) with the jump start....So simple case of a flat or something more complex? Can't tell yet. But those voltages will help.Is your water temperature gauge a traditional analogue device or something clever?...Opinions vary about the Banner batteries, i'd use something different. NB potential shipping problems to the IoM, but Tayna say it's OK.Smart conditioning chargers are useful, but surprisingly there are degrees of flatness from which they can't recover a battery where brute force does.Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 Can you hear the fuel pump priming when you switch on the ignition?Is the immobiliser disabling ok? (On my 2008 R400D, the starter won't run at all unless the immobiliser is disabled and the red LED stops flashing, but I'm not sure later Duratecs like yours work the same way?)Agree about the jump start from another vehicle. It could be the ECU is not responding due to the voltage being too low.JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Geoff Brown Posted January 19, 2020 Area Representative Share Posted January 19, 2020 From experience with my R400D it is a high probability that it is the Banner battery. Very low volts/amps will not unlock the immobiliser & will cause all sorts of 'weird' half movements from the gauge needles when pressing the start button first time.Also the immobiliser light will do a sort of disco dance & the fuel pump will obviously not activate.Try to trickle charge with a good charger like a CTEK but prepare to buy a new battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrMint Posted January 19, 2020 Author Share Posted January 19, 2020 The fuel pump was priming and immobilizer was behaving, dials were all over the place though.The booster is a lightweight lithium type with digital display and control. I'm not sure if something was tripping the control circuitry on the booster. It always read 95% after trying to start, even though the car failed to go.In the end I got enough charge into the Banner from my CTEK using the snowflake mode to turn the ignition on and have the dials behave. I then connected the booster, turned it to jump mode and it seemed happy. The car then started. I think connecting the booster first was affecting its mode of operation some how.I've been out for a drive, with the lights on so not ideal for charging. The car is now starting on its own, if a little tardy.It looks like the equiavant to what we term in the IT industry as a PICNIC error, Problem In Chair Not In Computer. I think I flattened it overnight after leaving the igintion on after driving it yesterday. I suspect after being distracted by the submarine connections. Temp gauge was bang on today.Car is back in the garage on charge with my CTEK conditioner so hopefully the battery will recover.Thanks for the help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted January 19, 2020 Member Share Posted January 19, 2020 Well done.I'd check the fluid level in the cells and those voltages.Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrMint Posted January 19, 2020 Author Share Posted January 19, 2020 My heads not in it at the moment. When I got the car started I hurried out with the car running and forgot to put the plastic covers back on the terminals I'd placed them next to the airbox, what's the bet they're gone. Place your bets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrMint Posted January 19, 2020 Author Share Posted January 19, 2020 Well what do you know, the battery terminal covers were there, in the recessed section under the airbox hose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7 wonders of the world Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 Maybe consder doing the lottery this week then..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Geoff Brown Posted January 20, 2020 Area Representative Share Posted January 20, 2020 If you go on a long night journey with the extra load from the lighting a dodgy Banner will give its self away because it will not maintain the feed to the ECU much above the minimum required which I believe is 4 volts so then there will be persistent rough running & miss firing at different RPM. Number one battery on the R400D presented me with that scenario & of course losing charge when stationary & tardy starting from cold.I reiterate what I wrote in #6 prepare to purchase a new battery because it will let you down. I have owned Sevens since 1994 & all fitted with Banners which have eventually failed due to what I call low voltage/amps memory meaning that the battery if it comes back from dead does not last long.IMO Banners are notorious for not enduring very well & need lots of TLC especially over the winter period - prevent loading by disconnecting, trickle charge & maintenance of electrolyte level. The record with my three Sevens & Banners highlights this:1994 -1999 two Banners. 2000 - 2012 three Banners. 2013 - 2019 two Banners. Probably end up with number three in a few years irrespective of the TLC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Re #12:My experience (two 7s between 1999 and now) isn't quite as bad as that.1.8K: 03/1999 - new with kit 10/2003 - new provided by CC along with SS-R upgrade (original was working ok) 12/2007 - went flat repeatedly, replaced with PV25R400D: 04/2008 - new with kit 07/2014 - new provided by CC after repairs and RB upgrade, and working ok at the moment (now that's the kiss of death, no doubt!)The K batteries were hooked up to a Draper trickle charger. The R400D batteries were/are maintained by an Optimate.JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted January 20, 2020 Member Share Posted January 20, 2020 ... because it will not maintain the feed to the ECU much above the minimum required which I believe is 4 volts...I think that we've had reports of electronics dropping out at 9.5 V. EDITED: See next post. I like to see at least 10.5 V during cranking. The surprising thing is that some Sevens will crank without obvious problems at voltages that aren't enough for a crucial bit of electronics.JonathanPS: We'd know a lot more about critical values if every report of problematic starting included those three voltages: at rest, minimum during cranking, and at 3,000 rpm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 ...we've had reports of electronics dropping out at 9.5 V. I suspect that the K MEMS ECU is less tolerant of low input voltage than the typical Duratec MBE 9A4. According to SBD, the supply voltage for the 9A4 can drop as low as 6.5v (if I'm reading the data sheet correctly).JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted January 20, 2020 Member Share Posted January 20, 2020 Thanks, I didn't know that.Are the instruments seen to stutter because they're stepper motors and/or digital and less tolerant than the ECU?...Yes, most reports are from Ks.Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevehS3 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 I've had similar good experience as John with the unloved Banner batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Re #16:Your "stutter" question is a bit above my pay grade, Jonathan. One for Mr Revill perhaps?JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrMint Posted January 20, 2020 Author Share Posted January 20, 2020 Purchase of a new battery will need to wait until we are back over to the mainland, I won't get the selection here, and delivery is likely silly on a desired unit from the likes of Demon Tweeks.The Banner is back on a CTEK MXS 3.8 which seems to be a pretty intelligent conditioner, according to the documentation its got lots of clever trickery to recover batteries, so let's hope.I've still to finish my data logger, hardware and software, but when that's complete I'll have a full picture of the supplied voltage during a drive, it will be interesting to see exactly what the ECU believe it's getting. I'll also be able to see the impact on the locked ECU parameters should the voltage drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerobod - near CYYC Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 The 9A4 ECU is quite tolerant of noisy supply and brief voltage drop-outs of the millisecond duration. With an Osciliscope you can see voltage spikes in some parts of the electrical system of +/- 8V at each plug firing for up to 0.5ms. At start and stop of the engine, back EMFs can cause similar disruption, but for a few milliseconds. When I tried putting a capacitor across sensitive voltage feeds such as to the ECU and TPS, the only change I saw was undesirable throttle lag due to too much damping of the signal to reduce the voltage spikes by an appreciable amount, that required a 1 micro-Farad capacitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Geoff Brown Posted January 20, 2020 Area Representative Share Posted January 20, 2020 After all my battery woes & some thought about alternatives I just bought a Banner from Tayna. Good price & quick delivery. I did consider one of the compact hi tech batteries but decided not to as all those that I looked at were more expensive & heavier than a Banner. I would imagine with the advance of battery technology at least the weight disadvantage may have been overcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted January 20, 2020 Member Share Posted January 20, 2020 Tabulated masses and other properties of some batteries of interest, and costs are in the the same thread. (Although not delivery costs to the IoM!)Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7 wonders of the world Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Sounds like a good oppertunity to ditch some dead Kg and ugrade to an AGM Powervamp or a Li-ion battery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph45 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 The banner batteries have always been in the spotlight regarding functionality/longevity.Have a look on Dave Gemzoe's Facebook page.he recommends the powerlite ps-20.Just have a look at the graphs on the page.looks a far superior battery if the info provided is correct and I'm sure it is having the research work done by Dave Gemzoe ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrightpayne Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 Why is it so expensive to get stuff to/from the IOM - limited ferry crossings?Sound like a business opportunity for an import / export emporium.In 22 years I think I've had 2 (maybe 3) banners and a powervamp. The latter has been used and abused but always switched off with the FIA key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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