Catch Can Questions

[CtrMint]

Hi All,

Couple of questions on the catch can please. 

Describing my S3 engine bay as tight is an understatement and I've noticed in order to get the catch can in you need to remove the top radiator hose.  Which I therefore assume you have to do to remove.

If I need/want to drain or inspect the can that means interfering/draining the coolant?  That seems to me to be a royal pain in the butt?  Is this correct?

Does the catch can 'catch' a lot of vapour from the engine and need much attention?

I'm also still working out what I need to do with the can.  It came with a hose sticking out as shown, but which is a  smaller diameter than the fitting on the side of the tank.  I'm assuming I need to fit an additional hole for the correct diameter, or could I use the existing one and just widen it, do I need the existing one?

Thanks

[John Vine]

That's bizarre.

Does your rad look like this?

My R400D rad looks like this:

My top hose and catch tank layout looks like this:

and the hose clears the catch tank with ease.  The rad inlet on yours is much closer to the edge. To get round the catch tank, the top hose would need to be a different shape.

Your combination of rad, top hose and catch tank looks to be poorly designed, not to say incompatible.  What do CC say?  Is there an alternative top hose for your particular rad?  Certainly it makes no sense to have to drain the coolant and remove the hose just to get at the catch tank!

Re the tank itself, the hose on mine connects to the RH rear of the cam cover.  The other (lower) hose is a breather from the plenum, installed after I suffered from oil surge.  The tank collects hardly anything, and I can't recall ever removing it.

JV 

[CtrMint]

Yes, your first image is the one I’ve been provided and I’m not happy about.

If you have a look at my earlier posts you’ll see the nightmare I’m having with the radiator.  I’ve spoken to Derek at CC and he tells me it’s correct. 

Getting the hose on the rad with the tank there is an absolute pig and interferes a lot.  Of course as per my original post you can’t remove the tank either.

[aerobod - near CYYC]

My radiator looks like Johns. I only have a larger single catch can hose that connects to the oil tank and a vented lid on the catch can. Shouldn't have to remove the catch can in normal circumstances, but if it does accumulate oil, you can use a pump to suck it out without taking the catch can out.

[CtrMint]

To be honest the rad is totally unacceptable, the bobbins are so close to the top hose port you can barely get the hose over the initial bit, basically just the width of the clamp, that’s it.  How Caterham say that is acceptable is beyond me.  

According to the packaging my rad is a R300 unit, so I’m also concerned whether it will have sufficient cooling too, it’s a smaller core for sure, and don’t the 420 Duratecs run hot too!  

[aerobod - near CYYC]

With the radiator that John and I have fitted I have found that my R400D tends to overcool at higher speeds, even when being driven flat out on the track in 30°C temperatures, giving water temperatures in the 75°C range where 80°C to 85°C would be better, in my opinion. I’ve always assumed the 74°C thermostat is fitted, I may put the 82°C one in in the future. Where it struggles is idling in traffic in 35°C weather with the fan constantly on, but water temperature has never gone over 90°C, I don’t think the 420R will require any more cooling than a 360R or R300 when idling.

I would send the photos of you problem areas to Caterham and/or point out all the issues and document them when they do the build check, ensuring that they are aware of what may be potential failure areas during your warranty period.

[John Vine]

Having to use the top rad hose in that way is an abomination.  I'm at a loss to see how CC Engineering could possibly have thought it was a good idea, let alone acceptable to the customer/builder.

How about this as an alternative?  You could insert an S-hose (trimmed to fit) between the existing top hose (trimmed) and the rad inlet, joining the two hoses with a connector.  Perhaps something along these lines (this one is from the Sigma):

Naturally, you'd expect CC to provide it FOC!

JV

[CtrMint]

Thanks John.  CC don’t seem open to much of a discussion on the topic when I previously questioned the setup.  It has left me feeling the car is a complete turkey.  If I didn’t  live in the Isle of Man I’d pay them a visit to seek answers but that is sadly not practical.

I am of the view the parts supplied should be appropriate and tested for longevity, neither is the case here.  I shouldn’t  be redesigning it,  thanks for the support though, I was near calling it a day during the week with regards the oil cooler lines, but now even more so.  I know the forum members here are fans of the cars, but as a new owner I think they’re a joke and ripping people off,  I’m in for 42k in total, and they can’t even engineer hoses and radiator brackets properly.    I shudder to think what else is wrong that  I can’t see through lack of knowledge.

It’s funny as I bought the dry sump option as I thought the wet sumps were too exposed.  I saw Youtuber MonkeyLondon damage the sump on a press car today, kinda reinforced my concerns.   

Am I the only new member that’s been through this pain and openly questioned the kit?

[John Vine]

... I shouldn’t  be redesigning it,...

Agree entirely.

Compared to yours, my two builds were straightforward.  Yes, there were frustrations, but they were quickly resolved -- usually after a call or an email to CC.

I think you may have suffered unduly from recent changes to an established design that haven't been thought through properly.  For example, my rad hoses fitted perfectly, and my oil hoses just needed a union adjusted. 

It would be very instructive if other 420R owners could post up photos of their cars (especially the engine bay, and both kit- and factory-built) so that you had a basis for comparison.  Perhaps CC themselves have a set of suitable photos? 

Btw, which Assembly Guide are you working to -- the latest IKEA-style one, or an earlier one with loads of text, tables and photos?

And as you're in the IOM, who will be doing the post-build check?

Don't despair, we're all rooting for you!

JV  

 

[CtrMint]

Yes if others could post images it would be amazing.  CC have provided some images but they are of an SV with differing dimensions and the use of a radiator cowling too.  Interestingly I've yet to see any images from CC of my exact combination, 

The IKEA style guide was only supplied, but only goes to a 360, and fails to even acknowledge a Duratec, illustrating only Sigma installation and routing.  So I've had to print out the old 2015 guide.  CC didn't even tell me about that the other manual, lucky Google is more capable!

I intend to ship the car at considerable cost back to the UK for Oakmere to do the Post Build check and then put it through a UK IVA, afterwards I'll export it to the IOM.  I have family resident in the UK so can make it work.  If I come to sell it back to the UK its already IVA'd and just goes back to the original UK plate etc.  Considering the extra money this will cost and also the 1500GBP already spent on delivery to date, this car is rapidly becoming more hassle than its worth.

My whole experience started badly, but that is another story, and I think its just going to end badly, under the heading life lessons!

 

 

[Jim 123]

Why not fit the top rad hose and if you need to drain the catch can use a 200 mil syringe with a length of tube fitted.  An alternative, as it appears service access is going to be challenging would be to fit the catch tank elsewhere.
 

[John Vine]

Yes if others could post images it would be amazing.

It might be a good idea to post a separate, specific request in both TechTalk and ChitChat to get maximum coverage (each with a link to the other) as the two audiences don't appear to overlap a lot.  Also, if you search the site for "420R", you'll find a few users that you could send Private Mail to.

The IKEA style guide was only supplied, but only goes to a 360, and fails to even acknowledge a Duratec, illustrating only Sigma installation and routing.

For a Duratec car costing £££s, that's utterly ridiculous, not to say completely unacceptable.  No wonder you're having so many Duratec-specific problems.  

...this car is rapidly becoming more hassle than its worth.

CC are taking quite a bit of public flak on here over your experiences.  Surely they must realise that it would be better to generate some positive PR (especially for potential purchasers of a 420R kit)?

Have you spoken to Graham MacDonald?

JV

[CtrMint]

Jim, I suppose I could, but why should I accept a lesser solution, I've paid the same money as others.  If the rad was correct with the top rad port in the correct place the hose would meet correctly and the issue wouldn't be there.

 

[CtrMint]

Have you spoken to Graham MacDonald?

I wasn't aware it was even an option, does he even get involved with customer service and quality issues such as this?

[CtrMint]

For completeness I thought I'd post would the actual solution looks like, without the hose drilled and fitted.

As you can see the top rad hose completely fouls the tank, pushing against the body of the bottle and hose in the tank.

The fitment of the top hose on the rad is pretty poor due to the proximity of the bobbin to the port, as shown.

Without the hose to show the clearance available.

Not happy!

[John Vine]

He may be the CEO but as sure as hell he should want to know about the problems you're having and the negative PR CC is gathering as a result.

Worth a try.  I'd be surprised if he simply passed you on to a junior exec.

JV

[John Vine]

And be sure to send him your excellent photos!  (And direct him to this thread.)

JV

[ScottR400D]

What you’re going through is ridiculous. Does anyone know why CC have changed the radiators from the earlier type with a separate cooler? 

When I built my R400D in 2015, one of the last before the 420, I guess, I had very few install issues. The ones I had were more to my misunderstanding than anything else. My cars an SV though and the extra space is handy. 

I do remember though that the original radiator had a small leak. They replaced it and that leaked. The third did as well so I gave up and had it repaired myself. All three were down to poor welding so maybe that’s why they’ve changed?

The current system looks awful though; in the way the rad is mounted, the dry sump piping and access to the catch tank. (As others have said, nothing or next to nothing ends up in there but still). Very poor.  

CC are hard to understand. They seem to spend a lot of effort on things that don’t really matter - model name changes, odd ‘specials’ that are usually pointless and grand announcements but can’t get basic engineering right. Even when they do they subsequently ruin it with ‘improvements’. 

Daniel French got support for his gearbox issues eventually by blogging about it and demanding a refund. Adverse publicity may be your best route. 

Have you looked for build blogs of a similar car, btw? They could be helpful, especially as the build manual isn't fit for purpose. 

[Jim 123]

Sorry if I am misreading the photos, but what happens if, rather than route the rad hose to the right of the tank, you take it over the top and to the left of the tank cap. 

[John Vine]

From the photo, I'd guess that the first elbow would then be hard up against the Dzus bracket -- not good for avoiding abrasion.  What it boils down to is that the new rad still has to use the old top hose, which is completely the wrong shape for the job.

JV

[ScottR400D]

Having looked, there are several 420 build blogs but none with the new rad/OC set up which seems to be the root of all of your issues. 

Why not ask CC to give you one of the old rads and oil coolers? They both show in stock (38C036B and 30E137A)

Makes the question of why they changed more puzzling  

 

[CtrMint]

JV, if by Dzus bracket you mean the rear catch for the nose cone, then yes the bend butts up against that too.  i figured I'd be expected to do something creative with the CC fix for everything, a cable tie.

Early on in the build I wasn't happy with the radiator and queried it with Derek.  Initially the integrated bolts were way too long so I had to hack them down.  During that email exchange Derek confirmed it was the correct radiator.  Short of demanding an alternative I believe he is of the opinion everything is correct.  My lack of mechanical experience and automotive knowledge doesn't position me well to argue the point.  Plus I get the feeling Derek chooses to respond if he feels you have a legitimate point, if he disagrees he is less responsive.

To add further complexity I tried to test fit the nose cone the other day and couldn't, guess what.... the radiator was too high.  I put that one off for another day assuming it was me, although I do fear its just another issue waiting in the wings

I've looked at so many blogs and articles and never found the radiator I have period.  It is like I'm the first.  CC did send me some photos of the rad, but it was mounted differently, using the cowling.  See the image.  Clearly the cowling or different bobbins behave differently as I can't get the hose on like that.  The chassis bracket I have stops it, it is just in the way.   Pic is from an SV, hence doesn't seem to have the same issue with the catch can,

 

[CtrMint]

Makes the question of why they changed more puzzling  

My radiator shipping box came through with R300 radiator marked on it.   Isn't that an old model?  Are they clearing old stock, the answer is as simple as that?

[aerobod - near CYYC]

I think it is multi-purpose, if you look at this URL it includes "r300-race", but the description is for "420R Race": https://caterhamparts.co.uk/radiators/6554-radiator-r300-race.html?search_query=radiator&results=66

They may have thought they are doing everyone a favour by shipping the more expensive "Race" version of radiator compared with the standard version with the separate oil cooler labelled as "Duratec and Sigma", but with "r400-road" in the URL: https://caterhamparts.co.uk/radiators/2798-radiator-r400-road-type.html?search_query=radiator&results=66

BTW, as others have stated, the quality control on the "Duratec and Sigma" radiator is not very good, mine as delivered from the factory has a slight weep too due to poor soldering between the tubes and bottom rail, one day I will do something about it, but it hasn't changed since I bought the car with 500km on it over 5 years ago.

[ScottR400D]

Time to start kicking up a fuss with McDonald I think. 

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