Caterham MBE ECU OBD-II CAN?

[Rattie]

Blimey, what a lot of TLA?!

 

What I'm trying to find out is on a new Duratec engined Caterham like our R300, can you interface from the Diagnostic port to a data logger like the Race Technology DL1 or Racelogic VBox? I don't mind getting a OBD-II to USB interface and having a poke around, but if somebody knows for certain then it could save some messing about.

 

Edit: Looks like we have pins 6 and 14 populated on the connector (says the R400 wiring diagram at least), which are the CAN high and low (ISO 15765-4), so that gives me hope at least. Can I assume that even on the locked firmware of the CC version MBE box that we can read live parameters even though we can't mess with anything?

 

Martyn

^{_{R300GRR SV trapped in Dartford until IVA on 12th March!!!}}

 

Edited by - Rattie on 9 Mar 2010 00:21:18

[rj]

I doubt so. The low volume type aproval has no need for an OBD system.

 

I must say that this is just my guess though.

[Rattie]

Ta RJ, but there is an OBD port near the steering column. I guess more than anything CC use it themselves for diagnostics. I just want to know what's available on it. It would appear from the pinout that it has CANbus populated, so it is likely compatible with CAN oriented OBD-II interfaces.

 

Any experts?

 

Martyn

^{_{R300GRR SV trapped in Dartford until IVA on 12th March!!!}}

[Richard Price]

I'd think that diagnosics are possible.

I was at Caterham Midlands a couple of years ago with a friend with a duratec R400.

A laptop was plugged into the port under the dash, and the problem with that car was quickly diagnosed (no feedback from the throttle pot). I think it was EasiMap that was used to check live data.

 

 

 

[andrew_r]

I bought the MBE CAN adapter and can plug in below the dash and map mine. I made a concious decision not to buy the Caterham ECU and bought an unmapped MBE 9A4 instead. I can access the full map etc. It is being mapped on a rolling road in a couple of weeks. Should hopefully run better than a compromised caterham map. It will also let me up the power in the future easily.

 

CAN Interface is an MBE 985 I think. Don't buy from Caterham though as there is a circa 300% markup.

 

Regards

Andrew

[Rattie]

Thanks guys, looks like we starting to get somewhere, but I guess I still don't know if the CC version of the MBE box is readbale by a non CC reader. On one hand we have Richard seeing a CC MBE read by a CC reader and on the other Andrew has a non CC MBE being read by a non CC reader (which you expect to work fine as that's what SBD sell on their site).

 

Now I find it fair hard to believe that CC could lock down reading off the MBE box, but I know so very little about OBD-II and CAN, over the abstract principles.

 

Anybody read a CC MBE with a non CC CAN reader?

 

Edit: @Andrew, so you got CC to supply a R400 engine without any ECU? Interesting they would agree to that. Is there any liability knock on effect, like lower grade warranty on the engine?

 

Martyn

^{_{R300GRR SV trapped in Dartford until IVA on 12th March!!!}}

 

Edited by - Rattie on 9 Mar 2010 10:25:43

[mic]

R400 ECU is can, you will need the correct lead. You wnt be able to change the settings without the correct software and key.

 

The standard maps are really better than the early K series cars There is not much to be gained by having the car remapped if the engine is as it left Caterham.

[Rattie]

cheers mic,

 

You're a star. That was the info I was after. With CANbus over OBD-II I should be able to hook up data logging without having to splice into all the sensor cables. Yay! All I need now is the bleedin' car back! 😬

 

Martyn

^{_{R300GRR SV trapped in Dartford until IVA on 12th March!!!}}

[rj]

Yes it certanly is a CAN interface, but that doesn't mean that you have all the data to the hand like in OBD-II.

 

OBD is not mandatory to achieve low volume type approval.

[fred_gustafsson]

Martyn,

 

Just saw this old post and similar questions. Just hooked OBD wifi dongle to my Duratec 175 (bog standard CC a la 2009) and fired up some open source data logger. I can see the battery voltage of the car but the dongle says it cannot connect to the ECU.

 

Time for an emerald?

[Mark Durrant]

What data are you hoping to capture?

[CharlesElliott]

OBD II is hopeless for capturing real time data.

 

CAN might work.

[John Hughes]

Have a look on the SBD website for the lead to connect to the ECU via the "ODB" port. costs about £120.

 

You can also download the latest version of the Easimap software. A Caterham supplied ECU is locked and so the map cannot be altered but you can see and record many ECU parameters in a computer.

 

ODB diagnostic codes are not output by the MBE ECU even though it is an OBD connector and cheap ODB cables off eBay don't appear to work with the Easimap software.

 

The data output can be useful to identify problems with sensors / tps / lambda etc

[John Vine]

Quoting mic: 

There is not much to be gained by having the car remapped if the engine is as it left Caterham.

But is that still the case if the CC-supplied MAP-based map is replaced by a TPS-based one?

 

JV

[Rattie]

Yeah, the MBE doesn't "talk" ODB, it just uses the connector to connect CAN. As John says, you need the MBE CAN-USB adapter. Best price is from SBD. Then you can hook up to Easimap. That does allow you to see the realtime data, but you are locked out from anything else.

 

Martyn

[Simon.Rogers]

You can now set up the exact data you want to see out of the MBE. Easimap always had this function but it was not as simple to set up. The new method has a simple twin window as seen in other software. Everything that is seen by the ECU is listed on the left and you simply drag what you want to send over CAN to the right hand window. You save this "setup" to the map. In the same set of windows it shows the exact CAN protocol information at the bottom of the screen. This can then be used for the Datalogger software to be set up so that it understands the CAN message.

 I suspect not as you can not write to the map or save the map on the standard Caterham MBE. This is of course a Caterham decision not MBE. I think if the ECU had Caterham written all over them then MBE would get less of a bashing from everyone. Not that this is happening in this instance.

[Gregs79]

Thanks all. Watching this post with interest. :-)

[Croc]

 

Here is another alternative to using Easimap.  As noted early, while the ECU is not OBDII it is CAN.  You can get logging data for track work out via the J1962 plug but it is slooow and gets out of sequence with say GPS or video.  

The video below is from hooking a AIM Solo DL up to my CSR 260.  The track map is GPS driven by the AIM and the data on the dials is all ECU.  Labels are what the ECU tells me it is recording but it is partly mislabeled on some fields - I never followed up on this.  The major items are accurate.   If you use this approach you need to tell the Solo DL that you are using a Noble (the car).  It is truly plug and play - no wiring needed.

I was disappointed in the level of data refresh delay.  If you closely follow the GPS track map (refreshing at 10hz so reasonably accurate) you will see that my ECU data on throttle, brakes, revs, etc is delayed relative to what I know (and what you will expect) is my logical movements on that part of a track.  No surprises as CAN is 1980s era technology and the refresh rate on the data is just too slow for the track speeds our cars can experience.  While video/GPS will sync up, the CAN data never will properly.  CAN is better than OBDII for refresh but still not fast enough to make it work fo me as a track data logger.

What you can do with this is use the Solo DL and customize the screen display so you can track the engine variable (in my case intake temps and oil temps) you wish to monitor at say 100mph in direct line of sight of the driver and get a feel for what is going on within the engine for a particular problem you are trying to diagnose.  The data is slightly delayed but I mentally allow for that when using this approach.  Its better than using a laptop on the passenger seat.  

If you want to go down this Solo DL for a track day/race video with logging data then my recommendation is dont bother - stick to video/GPS (which should be sufficient for 90% of people) or install customized sensors that would give far quicker data refresh rates for the logging data you need.  The Solo DL is a great bit of kit that I use its GPS with video to record my track days.   

 

​

 

[Simon.Rogers]

Hi Croc

I don't understand the technical electronics side of CAN but I use the AIM MXS logger dash and AIM Smarty Cam which has its own GPS and CAN interface.

The only display on the car is the MXS and it has all data from the MBE 9A9 available,  I can set the sample rate for each channel.

Its way fast enough to cope with anything.  Just as fast as EasiMap - effectively live data.  Certainly not delayed.

Do you have something else going on?

Interestingly I have been working with SBD/MBE and AIM and we have just created a new CAN protocol which AIM Italy will be adding to the Race Studio software in order to set up all MBE CAN ECU interface.  No longer will there be a need to select your ECU be it 9A4 or 9A9 etc  - just MBE and it will all work.

EasiMap has a new method of setting up the can data stream.

We will have a chip file that will be available to copy and paste/merge with your map on the ECU.

This will mean the ECU is sending out the same info that the AIM is expecting to receive.

[Croc]

 

Hi Simon, 

Interesting you are having no issues. I have had the same experience on multiple cars and with/without the smartycam (sometimes using a GoPro to manually sync) so I am confident the problem is the Solo DL/connection.

How are you setting the sample rates?  Within Race Studio or is there some other MXS unit-specific set up that you do?

A last question for now is what sample rate have you set everything at?

It could be we are dealing with customisation advantages than come from using pro grade (MXS) versus amateur grade (Solo DL)?

Cheers

mike

[TimHudson]

Simon,

so for my 2018 Caterham 420 all I need to do is select ECU MBE/9A4CAN v. 02.00.04 in RaceStudio 3 and all will work ?

thanks

Tim