Dipstick / oil levels on k series

[Dave McCulloch]

Probably been asked a 100 times before, but a search of the archives didn't provide a conclusive answer.

 

1) Engine is a 1600 k series. Dipstick is a "piece of wire" with a notch cut into it. I find this very difficult to read the oil level with - do all k series have this, or do some have a "traditional" dipstick (ie a strip of metal rather than a wire). Anyone know if I can swap mine - would obviously need to make sure that the level notch was still in the right place.

 

2) Engine is wet sump. Manual says oil level should be checked cold with engine off. However, my search highlighted a number of comments that oil level should be checked hot and with engine running (and that some newer engines even have a plate on the cam cover stating this). So should I follow the manual, or should it be checked hot and running. I did notice when I changed the sump baffle that the notch in the dipstick appeared to be just below the bearing ladder and hence presumable if filled to this level with engine running I should still not suffer from windage?

 

Any help gratefully received.

 

Dave

[SLR No.77]

It would be interesting if anybody can provide a definative answer on this one ❗

I've switched to 1800 from 1400, but I'm still using the 1400 dipstick - difficult to see why I shouldn't - it's a yellow plastic jobbie with a notch about 2" up from the bottom. Although I know the newer cars have the sticker saying check when running, in practice I've found this to be impossible. The only way I can get a consistent reading is with the engine stopped - I preferably check when hot because if you're doing a track day you're going to do regular checks. Checking cold is less relevant. I wait a while for the oil to drain back down, then check, and I'm aim for a reading a little above the notch. Too much more and sure enough it empties into the catch tank!

 

Stu.

 

[caterhamnut]

Would also seek a definative answer! I have the label saying check when hot and running, which I have always done. Would like to know which is right, because checking when warm and stopped gives a totally different reading (above the notch)

 

PS beware the plastic dip-stick - I had this in my 1.6 K - pulled the stick out on a cold day and the thing snapped at the notch. Notch still in there! Replaced with a wire dipstick, which has a yellow plastic end, from Caterham.

 

😬41,000 miles in 21 months!

angus@tinyworld.co.uk

Caterham pics

here

[fordy]

my dipstick broke off at the notch too ! Only a few pounds from Rover for a replacement plastic one though. Had the sump then anyway for a baffle change.

 

I noticed the Elise manual also says check oil when hot but NOT running.

[Tony Martyr]

Since when has this forum produced a definitive view - some members don't believe in the second law of thermodynamics !

From first principles the dipstick method is a bit lacking in absolute measuremnt terms so it is important for each of us to establish a set routine so that we can judge change in level. Also we need to set a sensible datum level.

If you have a wet sump non-Apollo engine then static and cold level is good system for tin-tops. It is not good for track days when you are always checking hot.

With an apollo tank and the yellow plastic jobby I switch off the engine and wait 30 seconds, which is about the time I take to get out and take off the bonnet and is before the oil level starts going up as the tank drains down.

My normal level is the notch/mark plus 2mm / minus zero. This has worked for the life of the car and has the blessing of a test operator at Longbridge with who I have exchanged views. There is a difference in level between the sides of the plasic because it curves considerably into the oil so I use the lowest of the two

[Chris W]

I spoke to CC about this when they delivered my SV (1.8K, 140hp) in February.

 

They told me that the K series, as fitted in the Rover, has a deeper sump compared to the 7 and therefore holds more oil. Ergo, if one takes a cold reading on the shallower sump K in a 7, the oil level which would appear to be OK on the dipstick would actually be a much lower capacity of oil than was intended for the engine.

 

To counteract this, their instruction (as stated on the label attached to the engine), is to make sure the oil is at the correct dipstick level "hot & running". Since a lot of oil will not be in the sump at that moment, it means that setting the correct dipstick level while hot and running ensures that more oil is poured in than would be if measured cold on a 7 sump and this ensures the correct volume of oil is maintained.

 

Chris

 

1.8K SV 140hp see it here

[SLR No.77]

.............and as long as the same level above the dipstick notch is referred to when not running - everytime - the result will be the same

 

Tony - my dipstick is approx 2mm think - if I recall - if you're concerned about the difference in level I hope you also use a spirit level to ensure the engine is in exactly the same orientation, both laterally and longitudinally, literally 😬.

 

Stu.

 

[fordy]

that explains something. I drained the oil out, checked the owner guide, said replace with 4 litres - I did and when I checked the oil level cold, it was way above the max level on the dipstick.

 

Still makes no sense to me. In any installation there will be a dead volume of oil in the oilways and pump etc.. The sump is just a resevoir for the oil pick up pipe - so theres less in the Caterham, just means our oil drain intervals should be a little shorter than a tintop, which they invariably are (expecially in a bloody K!!) and that oil surge would be an issue - which it is. To me the Caterham policy sounds like overfilling, likely to result in oil aeration/increased oil consumption.

 

Interestingly as I set off for Cadwell, knowing that the oil level when cold seemed high, I decided to run with it. When I got there, one of the Cats behind me complained of being showered with Mobils finest all the way there and my oil level had dropped a little. Then while out on track towards the end of the day, I suffered a hydraulic tappet failure. Likely the result of oil aeration and/or surge.

 

Just thought I'd confuse things further and bring even more doubt.

 

Me? I'll keep the oil level at max from now on with the oil hot but not engine running.

[Tony C]

As I understand it: the reaon for the "hot and running" advice when checking oil level on the current K-Series 1.8, is to allow for oil retention, I assume in the hydraulic tappets. I would also assume that the shallower Caterham sump has been compensated for by the dipstick markings.

 

Also an asumption: it is more important to ensure a correct oil level when the engine is hot and running because this will give the correct volume of oil that the engine requires - but not too much, which would result in excessive windage.

 

BRG SV 😬

[Dave McCulloch]

Thanks for the replies so far - though I'm not sure if I'm much the wiser!!

 

Fordy, do I take it that as you replaced your dispstick from Rover that the plastic dispstick is a standard Rover part and hence uses the standard Rover oil level markings? This would explain why the level should be checked with engine running to allow for the shallower Caterham sump - it would effectively amount to overfilling in order to keep an acceptable volume of oil to cater for all the oil in the pump, oilways, tappets and head.

 

Does anyone know if the oil pickup pipe is standard Rover, or has this been shortened to cater for the shallower sump?

 

Has anyone compared the oil level markings from a plastic dipstick with the metal wire version - I assumed the metal wire version was not standard Rover and the oil level notch was cut by Caterham to suit their installation. But maybe I'm completely wrong..... Does anyone have a metal wire dipstick and the manual says to check level with engine hot and running? Or vice versa does anyone have the plastic dipstick and the manual says check with engine cold and not running?

 

Dave

[Chris W]

I would also assume that the shallower Caterham sump has been compensated for by the dipstick markings

 

............ not according to Caterham - hence the need to measure oil level "hot & running". That is the compensation.

 

1.8K SV 140hp see it here

 

Edited by - Chris W on 13 May 2003 20:19:17

[Bricol]

So judging by all the posts here, am i the only one who cannot see a definitive level on the yellow plastic stick?

 

Its oily, but as it appears to be nice clean oil, i just cannot see a level - unlike the nice brown stuff in the Lancia?

 

Any advice?

 

Bri

[mav]

Lay the stick on the back of your hand and then turn through 180 deg and look where the oil is on your hand in relation to the stick. Works for me

[Tony C]

Both from a logical and practical point of view, I cannot for a moment imagine that just to compensate for a shallower sump the advice would be to check the oil level with the engine hot and running. The two things do not compute - whatever Caterham say.

 

I've discussed this with our good friend Oily and his opinion is that the reason for the hot and running advice is to allow for oil retention in the head - his opinion I trust 😬

 

I was being diplomatic earlier.

 

Standard procedure on the majority of four stroke piston engines of which I am aware is to check oil level with the engine stationary, after enough time has elapsed for all the oil to have drained back into the sump. This ensures an accurate oil quantity.

 

The dip stick on my 1.8 K-Series goes into the sump at a very shallow angle, nearly horizontal. The yellow plastic end has a cross hatched section that gives an indication of low and high - with the engine hot and running. I have not removed the sump, so do not know how close the cold and stationary oil level is to the bottom of the engine "block", as it were. I can only assume that the cold and stationary "full" oil level is in some way made innacurate by the extra shallow sump/engine "block" interference.

 

However, I stand to be corrected by those who actually know the reason - over to you Oily

 

BRG SV 😬

[F355GTS]

Bricol

 

Similar to the way Mav suggests but use a peice of kitchen towel, pull the dipstick and lay it on the towel then check the oily mark against the dipstick marking

 

Mark

[Chris W]

Tony

 

I can only assume that the cold and stationary "full" oil level is in some way made innacurate by the extra shallow sump/engine "block" interference

 

Obviously if one puts a shallower sump on an engine and the position of the dipstick isn't changed, then to reach the "full" level on the dipstick will require less oil. Or, as would be the actual case, one pours in the same amount of oil as with a normal sump, the oil level will be way above the previous "full" mark.

 

The question is, of course, whether Caterham did change the position of the dipstick as compared to a normal Rover K engine. Does anyone know? From what CC told me as to their reason for measuring "hot and running", it would appear not.

 

1.8K SV 140hp see it here

[Dave L.]

I have the yellow plastic dipstick, but mine has a "full" notch cut above the standard Rover crosshatch marking. I have assumed that this provides the compensation for the shallower sump and I therefore check level in the cold and off mode.

 

Anyone know if this extra notch is a Caterham mod - I have heard that one or two other people have this ? Or could it just be a previous owner's attempt to compensate. Mine's an early-ish 1.4 K.

 

 

 

That's your company car !?!

[Bricol]

Mav, Mark,

 

ta for that - never even thought of that!

 

Bri

[Lennie]

Hope I can help with this. When I was at Caterham the original dipstick was a modified Rover, which we cut a notch in. When the Apollo came in I noticed that the oil in the sump was very low when the car was running so I recommend to Reg. who designed the Apollo that oil should be checked running i.e. when the Apollo is full. We then made the vvc, which had problems running bearings, but when checked running, the oil was ok, on investigation we found that the vvc dipstick was different to the standard k due to the amount of oil the head retains. I then decided that with all the different combinations that the simplest way was to check all engines the same way with or without Apollo, vvc or standard. So the correct way is: - Use a Caterham dipstick which are now bespoke to the sump, run the car and warm the oil and check when running, in practice you can check with the engine stopped as long as you do it immediately. Those with vvc may also want to rev the car as the head when running at reasonable revs seem to retain an awful lot of oil. The simple test is to check when cold and having not run and then running to see how much the level drops. The thinking being that the oil level should be correct when running, now the standard Rover stick allows for the drop but with a different sump and the fact some cars have Apollo’s I went for one dipstick to avoid confusion and one method for checking for the same reason. Judging from this thread that didn’t work.

[Mole]

My engine is a 2003 1.8 K with standard wet sump.

 

I have tried checking the oil level cold and "hot and running". A couple of weeks ago the "dancing oil pressure guage" symptoms suddenly appeared which I immediately put down to a dodgy oil pressure sender as this seems to be the received wisdom of various threads on BC. (I'm ashamed to admit that this was on a "Sunday driver" outing with no excessive cornering speeds etc!!)

 

I had previously checked the oil level cold and it was above the series of crosses on the yellow plastic end of the dipstick. Checking hot and running the level was about half way up the crosses (i.e. about half way between what I take to be the min and max points). Adding enough oil to bring the level up to the max mark with the engine running restored a rock steady oil pressure (phew!).

 

This led me to two conclusions:

 

1. The oil should be kept well topped up as there is a risk of starvation even when the level is well above the min. mark.

2. Checking the level hot and running is (obviously) a much better indication of the what the engine sees in normal operation -the cold oil level really isn't a reliable measure.

 

Oh - and a third conclusion - although the pressure senders have a reputation for being unreliable, don't automatically assume that fluctuating oil pressure is down to the sender!

 

 

SV 52 CAT - the mole is awake

[Dartmoor7]

With the exception of Accusump/Apollo/dry sump,etc, surely the easiest way to get a correct level on *whichever* engine you have is to do an oil and filter change, put in the manufacturer (or in this case Caterham) recommended amount of oil, and then check the level cold and put your own mark on the dipstick.

I have a 1994 1.4 SS, I check cold, I rev the cars bollocks off everytime I drive it (no choice got 5-speed box), it's done 28,000 miles with no problems.

 

Jerry Parker

L7SVN

1.4 Supersport

[Peter Carmichael]

Another statement beginning "Surely...".

 

In this case the manufacturer does not give an oil volume. They give you a dipstick with specific instructions as described by Len.

[Dave McCulloch]

Len

 

Thanks for the response. I assume then that this "Caterham specific" dipstick is the later plastic version, and hence the safest way to ensure correct oil level (and hence reduce the risk of surge/starvation) is to get one of these from Caterham and then check oil level hot and running. My dipstick is currently a metal wire - am I right in assuming that this was an earlier version (1998 car) and hence will have a difference level marked?

 

Can someone with a later plastic dipstick measure from the top of the dipstick (ie under the "handle", flush with the top of the dipstick tube) to the various level marks (full and low?). I can then compare with mine!

 

Many thanks

 

Dave

[fordy]

seems I bought a Rover 'metal' dipstick as a replacement for my broken Caterham plastic one when I did the last oil/baffle/filter change. I've been running on max dipstick cold but fear it has caused some problems.

 

I did Cadwell park a few weeks ago but came home with a very sick engine, seemed to be a very rattly seized tappet. Everyone seemed to think so. A set of tappets from DVA later and the problem still remains. I'm thinking big end gone due to oil surge and running too low on oil.

 

You live and learn eh?

 

Anyone got any 1.4SS K engines they'd like to freely donate?

[Dartmoor7]

'Yawn', as Len has stated here Caterham changed their advice with the introduction of various engine oil system mods, but your statement 'In this case the manufacturer does not give an oil volume' was not the case when my 1994 build manual and owners manual were printed. Both state 4 litres.

 

Jerry Parker

L7SVN

1.4 Supersport