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ECU Diagnostics - CAN Bus, hunt for answers


CtrMint

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Guys,

I'd like to start a thread about the diagnostics on the later 7s, such as the Sigma and Duratec cars using the locked MBE ECUs.  I am attempting to understand what is and isn't possible from the diagnostic connector.  I'm not interested in mapping the car, just reviewing the data from the car.  Now I understand  Easymap and the MBE 985 cable is the standard method of gaining such insights, and I've placed my order for a cable this weekend.

I would however like to understand why this is specifically needed and why there seems to be a general acceptance the only solution which works.  During my build I did plug in a generic OBDII CAN supporting diagnostic tool, and as far as I could tell it gave me a sensible coolant temp reading, which was very close to that on the dash gauge.   So I am a little cynical about the limits.

I'd also like to compose a post for my blog, I'm sure there are others that have similar queries.  

Additionally, I'd prefer to use a non-Windows tool to log and chart the diagnostics data.  Maybe even write a bespoke tool I can hang off my Linux box I have in my garage, or use on a raspberry pi etc.  Lastly depending on the information I can put together at an early stage I'm going to try and mirror the USB stream from the MBE985 cable being feed into Easymap and use Wireshark on Linux using the Linux SocketCan driver.  Hopefully this should give me the ability to inspect the data stream and identified the values/identifiers I'm interested in.

I know this is a relatively specialized area, but the expertise here seems boundless at times, so I'm sure there's sufficient knowledge to support this endeavour.  Thanks for your support,  fingers crossed.

What I believe to be the case...... but please correct me!
The 7 has or uses;

  •  An SAE J1962 diagnostic connector (pretty standard) 
  • A single ECU, which uses CAN bus, it is unclear whether it is 11 bit or 29  bit wide implementation. Bit rate is also unknown.
  • Standard ISO 15765-4 d Pins 6 (CAN_L) & Pin 14 (CAN_H) are utilized for signaling.
  • Identifiers and Payloads within the data stream are not published, sticking point and issue or concern.  Hope they are encoded in a simple manner.

To me, the final point is where the issue occurs,  but I might be wrong.   The ECU developers have either not published or not used common identifiers and payloads permitting the use of generic tools.  

I see no reason why with some time and effort aspects of this can't be overcome.  If I can get access to the stream with Wireshark, using the CAN protocol analyser it is entirely possible different identifiers could be inspected and charted with a Wireshark IO Graph etc and thus deciphered.  For example, the identifier for engine speed would be clear when the throttle is pressed.

Or am I missing something here?

I appreciate this thread is going to turn many people away.  For me, it's an interesting topic and while CAN is totally new to me, the concept of protocols deciphering isn't.  Plus I'd really like more freedom when monitoring the car.   Easymap serves a purpose but I really don't want a Windows host just for that.  If you can offer some knowledge or experience from the point of the 7 its implementation of CAN and connectivity then I'd appreciate it.

Thanks

 

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Good luck on this. I'd never say never, but there's a few out there that have tried. Those that have succeeded in getting access to the pin, passwords, and past the encryption seem to keep it close to their chest. You may get data, but not necessarily anything meaningful.  I also believe things have changed over time and the latest ECU from Caterham can no longer be wiped and remapped.

For those without the time, usually buying an open ECU from SBD and a remap is the best way forward.

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Is Emerald a solution? 

To solve my not wanting to use a PC I bought a very tiny laptop, I’ll edit with details later. Even has RS232, which was what persuaded me, to escape the unreliable USB adapter. 

I guess for a new build this may not be what you want. There are some wizards in here who will no doubt be along soon :-)   Search revilla’s ecu posts. 

anthony

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Guys,

Just to be clear I'm not looking to change the map in any way.  I'm working on the assumption a pin, password or decryption to read the data stream isn't required, though I might be wrong.

This is more about the challenge of supporting the standard ECU etc.  3 years ago I wrote a graphical dashboard for the Codemasters video game F1 2016, it used a Raspberry Pi and small 7" display, basically provided the sort of digital display from AIM.  Data was extracted from a UDP multicast stream picked up over WiFi.  As a solution, it was enjoyable to build but had poor longevity due to the life of the game etc.  I didn't get much value as I built for a friend.   Building something for the 7 which is available for the standard ECU would be as fun, and potentially infinitely more useful to me and anyone else interested.

 

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I think with time and effort to reverse engineer the PIDs that MBE uses, all diagnostic info should be available via a standard CANbus cable. From what I have looked at it is a matter of non standard PIDs and lack of documentation.

You don’t need the decrypted ECU image for diagnostics. The 982 / 9A4 ECUs don’t seem to use a PIN / password for the factory image anyway, just a direct flash of the encrypted image - I scripted the use of all possible PIN codes against the factory ECU a couple of years ago and non worked, I think this is why no one has the PIN codes available for the later ECUs.

I didn’t bother looking into the PID structure when I decided to put in an unlocked ECU, as I needed to remap due to limitations in the original mapping that didn’t suit my needs, so I just bought a new 9A4 ECU with external SBD Baro and IAT sensors and 985 cable and Innovate wideband Lambda system to solve my problems.

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Great well it sounds like I'm not too far off in my assumptions then.

I've found some great tools available on Linux which are capable of sorting and displaying the identifier/PIDs, which should make filtering some bit easier.   The real question of course  reversing the values will be, if there are offsets all over the place I guess it will be pretty tricky.

I wonder why the ECU manufacturer feels it's beneficial to keep the PIDs away from the public.

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I don't think MBE obscured the PIDs from the public deliberately, more likely due to the ECUs being aimed at aftermarket and racing use they prioritised processing speed (bearing in mind limited processor capabilities in the ECU compared with the large manufacurers) and stripped all unnecessary packet and data overhead that didn't meet their needs.

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A while back one of the data logging hardware manufacturers attached a CANalyzer to my car (2012 Sigma) in order to work out what info was being published to the bus. The answer was nothing, unless another live device was on the bus too (we turned acknowledgement on to see that), in which case the answer was RPM only.

If, however, you used the MBE cable to the OBDC socket and the MBE software, then there was rather a lot of data covering all sorts of useful stuff.

It may be that the MBE isn't using CAN for that? Or requires it to be explicitly queried?

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That is interesting to hear, from my research CANalyzer looks pretty good, certainly one of the best looking I've found while researching CAN.  For it to miss CAN bus data from your ECU is surprising and slightly worrying for my plans.

From my understanding, and at present I'm going through a steep learning curve, CAN should broadcast its messages regardless of other nodes on the network.  Its basically the same as UDP in IP networks, but with a 2 layer model.

I'd be surprised, and very disappointed to find MBE using something proprietary protocol instead of CAN.  I know OBDII diagnostic data is mandated now by many jurisdictions, but I'm not sure CAN is, still you'd expect the standard to be used.

Hopefully when I get my cable I can run Easymap on my VM and tap the USB into Wireshark, it should show if Easymap is acting as a second node, and transmitting in some way.

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The CANbus was definitely silent when it was watched passively (it caused much headscratching). When we got the CANalyzser to make some noise on the bus, then we got RPM back, but only RPM - the conclusion seemed to be that the ECU seemed be working on a "if there is no one else on the bus to receive it, why would I send data" basis. 

If you get any more than that, I would be very interested in how...

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They are the ECU configuration files. You are also able to do an ECU memory dump to look at structure, although this may be just an encrypted dump with the Caterham shipped ECUs (992/9A4) from what I remember, so may not provide anything useful for a ‘locked’ ECU.

I haven’t looked at the binary content in the EC2 files, it would be easy to navigate if it is XML. I’m just working in Montréal at the moment with an iPad and iPhone, so not really equipped to look further this week.

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Contributors seem to keep referencing encrypted or encryption, but as yet I've not seen or found any evidence encryption is being used.  I would certainly not expect the ECU to be equipped with the performance to be generating ciphertext from real-time values being observed on the respective sensors etc.  Surely it would add unnecessary complexity and cost. Though I might be wrong?

I do accept the values being processed by the ECU and hopefully transmitted out via the CAN bus are likely to be a representation of the real world having been passed through some form of ADC and then represented in something such as hex.  I would also expect some bitwise operations to be taking place for efficient packaging into the payloads in various CAN packets.  But these don't constitute encryption.  I suspect a dump of the map would be similar in nature, requiring an understanding of the various locations in the dump.  

It would have been very helpful if the .EC2 files were XML or JSON.  But they seem to be a simple ASCII text file with sections and heading denoted by [ ].  There is everything from scales, max and mins to hex values which might be PIDs or addresses.

 

 

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The only thing that is encrypted (referenced as such by MBE) is the chipfile (.ECC) in the ECU or read from the ECU, everything else is in the clear. No idea of the cipher strength or method, but originally it was secured by a 4-character (possibly digits only) code, so can’t be more than 32-bits.

This is not anything like a symmetric certificate based TLS data stream that you are probably familiar with from being in the IT industry.

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The ECU as supplied by Caterham publishes little or nothing on the CANbus - probably just RPM and water temperature. Caterham seem to have decided to configure it that way.

The reason Easimap is needed and can get more data is because it sends a request to the ECU which the ECU then answers. There are a couple of companies who have created modules that continuously request the data so that something else listening on the CANbus can pick it up.

On the PIN/encryption, I haven't investigated this but on the more recent ECUs I believe there is a custom version of Easimap that Caterham have and therefore it is no longer possible just to find out the PIN to get access.

Charles

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Thanks guys,

Charles, You mention Easymap sends a request to the ECU etc.  It's not entirely clear but are you saying its a repeated request or a single request to enable output onto the CAN bus. 

Hopefully this will be evident when I tap the CAN bus with Wireshark.

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I'm working on the assumption Easymap is generic and has been built with no hardcoded values etc.  If that assumption is correct then the ec2 file is the best place to start when looking to reverse engineer the PIDs and their values.  Remember I'm not looking to map, just replicate the logging functionality available in Easymap.

Put another way, Easymap looks pretty monolithic, and so I'm expecting to find a set of files instructing Easymap how to interpret CAN data, as well as map ECUs.  I suspect that's an ec2 file.

When I get ahold of my MBE985 cable (hopefully tomorrow), I'll be able to connect to the ECU and monitor file/disk/memory of my Windows host to see exactly what Easymap touches before it displays data.  That should give me a little more insight, but fingers cross I'm already on the right path.

Of course having no experience with mapping and ECUs.... I could be completely wrong.  If this was malware I'd have it  *smash*

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I think you are just going to see RPM and Water Temp....if you are lucky. My DL1 data logger can sniff the CAN and decode it so I know everything that is there on mine.

You can sniff what Easimap is sending and then replicate the request / response process to get the other parameters.

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Managed to get some data out via candump, also managed to capture a pcap, but not while Easymap is running.

I dont think the data is correct as I'd expect the value 0CBB0001 to be changing.

(1565269626.929975) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269626.939975) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269626.950128) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269626.960253) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269626.970599) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269626.980824) can0 0CBB0001#0327001E00000000
(1565269626.989974) can0 0CBB0001#02000000AFD50000
(1565269627.000025) can0 0CBB0001#014F00003D009C46
(1565269627.010027) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.020246) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.030032) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269627.040072) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269627.050275) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269627.060501) can0 0CBB0001#0327001E00000000
(1565269627.070820) can0 0CBB0001#020000007FD50000
(1565269627.080253) can0 0CBB0001#014F00003D009C46
(1565269627.090173) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.100173) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.110198) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269627.120522) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269627.130299) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269627.140248) can0 0CBB0001#0327001E00000000
(1565269627.150547) can0 0CBB0001#02000000DFD50000
(1565269627.160850) can0 0CBB0001#014F00003D009C46
(1565269627.170297) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.180320) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.190344) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269627.200445) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269627.210668) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269627.220486) can0 0CBB0001#0327001E00000000
(1565269627.230415) can0 0CBB0001#02000000AFD50000
(1565269627.240619) can0 0CBB0001#014F00003D009C46
(1565269627.250942) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.260466) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.270567) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269627.280513) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269627.290517) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269627.300689) can0 0CBB0001#0327001E00000000
(1565269627.310527) can0 0CBB0001#020000007FD50000
(1565269627.320511) can0 0CBB0001#014F000042489C46
(1565269627.330964) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.341288) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.350572) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269627.360741) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269627.370867) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269627.380689) can0 0CBB0001#0327005800000000
(1565269627.390993) can0 0CBB0001#02000000DFD50000
(1565269627.401240) can0 0CBB0001#014F000070B39C46
(1565269627.410740) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.420713) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.430992) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269627.440811) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269627.450988) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269627.460836) can0 0CBB0001#0327006100000000
(1565269627.470810) can0 0CBB0001#02000000AFD50000
(1565269627.481032) can0 0CBB0001#014F00009BCF9C46
(1565269627.490835) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.501011) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.511502) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269627.520885) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269627.530911) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269627.541211) can0 0CBB0001#0327003200000000
(1565269627.550932) can0 0CBB0001#020000007FD50000
(1565269627.561384) can0 0CBB0001#014F0000B2DA9C46
(1565269627.571106) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.580986) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.591185) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269627.601081) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269627.611109) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269627.621681) can0 0CBB0001#0327001900000000
(1565269627.631056) can0 0CBB0001#02000000DFD50000
(1565269627.641107) can0 0CBB0001#014F0000B9DD9C46
(1565269627.651134) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.661234) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.671532) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269627.681182) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269627.691181) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269627.701432) can0 0CBB0001#0327000000000000
(1565269627.711255) can0 0CBB0001#02000000AFD50000
(1565269627.721572) can0 0CBB0001#014F0000C9E39C46
(1565269627.731140) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.741249) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.751319) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269627.761298) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269627.771495) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269627.782045) can0 0CBB0001#0327000000000000
(1565269627.791353) can0 0CBB0001#020000007FD50000
(1565269627.801477) can0 0CBB0001#014F0000D3E79C46
(1565269627.811453) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.821438) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.831844) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269627.842276) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269627.851441) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269627.861628) can0 0CBB0001#0327000000000000
(1565269627.871438) can0 0CBB0001#02000000DFD50000
(1565269627.881727) can0 0CBB0001#014F0000CDE59C46
(1565269627.892251) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.901544) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.911623) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269627.921572) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269627.931600) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269627.942098) can0 0CBB0001#0327002B00000000
(1565269627.952399) can0 0CBB0001#02000000AFD50000
(1565269627.961670) can0 0CBB0001#014F0000A8D59C46
(1565269627.971795) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.981723) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269627.992219) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269628.002523) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269628.011724) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269628.021793) can0 0CBB0001#0327006100000000
(1565269628.031821) can0 0CBB0001#02000000CFD50000
(1565269628.041891) can0 0CBB0001#014F000088C49C46
(1565269628.052321) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269628.061943) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269628.071818) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269628.081899) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269628.091889) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269628.102219) can0 0CBB0001#0327005D00000000
(1565269628.112721) can0 0CBB0001#02000000CFD50000
(1565269628.121938) can0 0CBB0001#014F000079BB9C46
(1565269628.131941) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269628.142011) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269628.152019) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269628.162243) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269628.172789) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269628.182017) can0 0CBB0001#0327006100000000
(1565269628.192166) can0 0CBB0001#020000009FD50000
(1565269628.202040) can0 0CBB0001#014F00009CD09C46
(1565269628.212116) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269628.222665) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269628.232204) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269628.242109) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269628.252166) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269628.262187) can0 0CBB0001#0327000D00000000
(1565269628.272662) can0 0CBB0001#02000000CFD50000
(1565269628.282314) can0 0CBB0001#014F0000BFE09C46
(1565269628.292213) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269628.302365) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269628.312365) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269628.322661) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269628.332288) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269628.342287) can0 0CBB0001#0327001F00000000
(1565269628.352337) can0 0CBB0001#02000000CFD50000
(1565269628.362335) can0 0CBB0001#014F0000A9D69C46
(1565269628.372533) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269628.382837) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269628.392379) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269628.402411) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269628.412657) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269628.422441) can0 0CBB0001#0327006000000000
(1565269628.432654) can0 0CBB0001#020000009FD50000
(1565269628.443076) can0 0CBB0001#014F000086C39C46
(1565269628.452426) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269628.462575) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269628.472724) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269628.482525) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269628.492849) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269628.503299) can0 0CBB0001#0327005E00000000
(1565269628.512524) can0 0CBB0001#02000000CFD50000
(1565269628.522723) can0 0CBB0001#014F00007ABC9C46
(1565269628.532623) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269628.542873) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269628.553145) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269628.562622) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269628.572622) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269628.582921) can0 0CBB0001#0327006000000000
(1565269628.592721) can0 0CBB0001#02000000CFD50000
(1565269628.602871) can0 0CBB0001#014F000095CC9C46
(1565269628.613371) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269628.622746) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269628.632745) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269628.642744) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269628.652792) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269628.663319) can0 0CBB0001#0327000D00000000
(1565269628.673003) can0 0CBB0001#020000009FD50000
(1565269628.682878) can0 0CBB0001#014F0000C2E19C46
(1565269628.693102) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269628.702975) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269628.713023) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269628.723599) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269628.732948) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269628.743024) can0 0CBB0001#0327000000000000
(1565269628.752975) can0 0CBB0001#02000000CFD50000
(1565269628.763050) can0 0CBB0001#014F0000BADD9C46
(1565269628.773773) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269628.783050) can0 0CBB0001#FF00000000000000
(1565269628.793046) can0 0CBB0001#FF46000000000000
(1565269628.803063) can0 0CBB0001#FF9C000000000000
(1565269628.813068) can0 0CBB0001#049CFF2800000000
(1565269628.823522) can0 0CBB0001#0327006000000000
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