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How many litres oil, R500k: only two extracted (solved 8 litres)


anthonym

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Dry sump, oil cooler, apollo, drained tank and have only 2 litres, plus s bit from the apollo, not much, Must be some in the oil cooler but where is the rest ?

Anthony

Solution: disconnect rear sump pan hose (4 allen bolts two small two 6mm), for better measure remove the filter found when this hose disconnected (gently it looks fragile).4.5 litres of oil have appeared. In under an hour no further oil is draining.

Added yet another litre, so discovering that index finger from tip to knuckle on the dip pole represents one litre. 

Total oil added 1.5+4+1+1 plus priming cooler, apollo, filter, means she has accepted 7.5 plus priming and after a good but gentle run (50 miles plus) level dropped 5mm which I see as insignificant and I took  bit longer to do the dip, albeit under 60 seconds, but oil is running back to the engine from the very first moment of switch off. So I reckon I am at say cooler 50 ml apollo 250ml, filter 100 ml = 400ml cumulative total = 7.9 litres plus whatever was left in the engine in nooks and crannies say 100ml, seems to me my grand total oil volume is 8 litres, but expect to actually put in 7.5 litres if cooler, filter and apollo are not empty.

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Go with gravity - bottom of the engine?  Id disconnect the lower / rear hose from the belltank, and loosen the front hose, moving it around to drain into the same container. This should drain the bell tank and what left in the sump. Failing that, check your piston rings *silly*  

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I asked my piston rings and they said they have not  seen any oil in a while.

the bell tank is empty, so methinks that leaves as you suggest the oil return hose.

I was wondering about turning over the engine on the starter, plugs removed, to scavenge sump oil back to the bell tank, which has its drain plug removed

 

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You could do that, Ive used the starter motor to help pump oil out before.  Ive a drain plug fitted instead of the blue plate on the bottom of my bell tank, and I usually dont get all the oil out that way.  The only disadvantage of draining via the hoses you are drain oil through the strainers, so any bits wont be flushed out.  Its worth periodically removing the unions and cleaning the gauzes - I did mine for the first time since I built the engine and one of them was substantially (~1/3rd) covered with swarf etc.    

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A friend only got 2 litres out of his dry sumped R400K. This was identified as the reason it had just gone bang. It was running very nicely indeed right up until the moment it decided not to keep running any longer. You may just have been very lucky.

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where do I look for the strainerss and gauzes?

I too have the blue plate replacement with drain plug.

What the easiest way to drain the oil cooler? I keep looking at it wondering how to get a spanner in there; from above or below etc - I have a syringe I can use to suck it out. 

it would last have been cleaned out in 2010 when the engine was "refreshed", about 24,000 miles ago.

apart from the fact I don't have a spare gasket, I have also wondered about removing the sump pan.

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There are two unions on the dry sump pan. One at the front of the engine has a hose that goes to the bottom of the bell housing. The one at the back of the engine has a hose that goes up to the scavenge pump. These unions are attached to the engine with two small hex bolts. If you remove these, you can draw out a tube with a gauze on which is where the oil is drawn through.

https://caterhamparts.co.uk/dry-sump/1476-hi-line-scavenge-filter-assembly-rover-dry-sump-system.html?search_query=Dry+sump&results=118

My sump doesn't have a gasket, it's attached with a thin bead of silicone. Not a think bead as you don't want it squeezing into the engine. I'd leave the sump pan well alone if it's oil tight. You don't / shouldn't have foam in there like the wet sump set up, so no need to take it off. 

An other thing I've done in the past is remove the DS belt and sling the wheel by hand to scavenge out the oil fro the sump - but it's much easier using the starter motor. I'm not familiar with the oil cooler or Apollo - but you should have loads of oil left inside, at least 4 litres more lneeds to come out - assuming its there! 

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Thanks Tom:

Solution: disconnect rear sump pan hose (4 allen bolts two small two 6mm), for better measure I removed the filter found when this hose is disconnected (gently it looks fragile). Exactly 4.5 litres of oil have appeared. car jacked up high at front.

Oil cooler yet to do.

 

 

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Oil cooler gave very little oil, maybe 50ml and to drain it I had to remove it and first the radiator.

so I have flushed it with fresh oil. Not worth draining it. The Apollo also gave up very little oil.

total extracted 1.5 + 4.5 = 6 litres plus small amounts from the Apollo, oil cooler and oil filter.

I have primed all three ready for the main refill

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Don't know. Just wondering that. I have put in 1.5 litres to the bell tank and 4 litres to the engine, then another litre to the engine and the dip pole at 50c within 60 seconds of switch of indicates another litre. 

Bearing in mind the oil cooler, apollo and rear engine sump hose removal, practically every drop would have been  evacuated. Currently at 6.5 litres put in, plus primed oil cooler, filter and apollo, I had thought that would be the 7 litres I was working to. Need to search blatchat - which didn't reveal anything relevant, is it my imagination or is the search function a bit vague?

Added yet another litre, so discovering that index finger from tip to knuckle on the dip pole represents one litre. 

Total oil added 1.5+4+1+1 plus priming cooler, apollo, filter, means she has accepted 7.5 plus priming and after a good but gentle run (50 miles plus) level dropped 5mm which I see as insignificant and I took  bit longer to do the dip, albeit under 60 seconds, but oil is running back to the engine from the very first moment of switch off. So I reckon I am at say cooler 50 ml apollo 250ml, filter 100 ml = 400ml cumulative total = 7.9 litres plus whatever was left in the engine in nooks and crannies say 100ml, seems to me my grand total oil volume is 8 litres.

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  • Member

Need to search blatchat - which didn't reveal anything relevant, is it my imagination or is the search function a bit vague?

"Vague" is generous in comparison to previous descriptions. Do you know the trick for using external search engines with site restriction? I find that much more effective.

Jonathan

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  • 11 months later...

Why 8 litres?

rj tells me it's unusual for a dry sump car to have an Apollo which explains why I have such a large oil capacity. Oil cooling was always a challenge for these cars so I'm not surprised the original owner fitted everything possible; I can still make it overheat the oil when climbing an Alp in 1st and 2nd gear; principally I think because the road speed being around 40mph plus and minus means there isn't the necessary airflow.

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Anthony,

 

When draining the oil, do you then also drain from the apollo tank?

On a wet sump car you get approximately the same amount of oil from the sump pan and from the apollo.

Be careful when you undo the drain plug. If you turn the tank you may damage it or add stress to the hoses resulting in fatigue where the tank is welded. Been there....

I always use an impact gun to undo it as I have found this to be the most gentle way to do it. (!) This may, over time, strip the thread, but I'll rather have a stripped thread in the garage than a leaking tank on the race track.

(With regards to the overheating issues I'm wondering if this is a problem because magnesium has less heat transfer capability than alluminium? Both the R500 bellhousing (and therefore dry sump tank) and sump pan are made from magnesium - I have, whithout an oil cooler - never had issues even if the car has been honed on track four hours in a row, the maximum temperature I've ever seen is 110 degrees - I have a sensor in the sump pan and in the apollo).

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hi rj,

yes on that occasion I drained everything. I think I emptied the apollo using suction from the top as the drain plug seemed a bit tight and I didn't want to force anything. On track I imagine you are doing more than an average of 40 miles an hour so you have the necessary airflow. On the more usual faster Alp it's not an issue iirc , it's been a while.

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On my home track, Ring Knutstorp, the average speed is around 70MPH, max speed is just under 120 so in that way you're right. Still, you get less cooling from a magnesium "heat sink" than you do from an aluminium ditto.

It all adds up: The less efficient cooling and reduced air flow... suddenly you're outside the "process window".

The other note about air flow on track is that you relatively often are rather close to the car in front of you which reduces the flow throuhg the radiator etc. Guess it's time to do some data logging...

/r

 

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