Indicator Switch Wiring - please help

[L66TEY]

Hi All

As this is my first 'post' on BlatChat - I'd very much appreciate some help.

As a bit of back ground, having wanted a Caterham since my teenage years - I was able to fulfill this dream last July when I acquired an R300 Duatec.

Since then, along with enjoying driving it on public roads at any given opportunity (2020 was meant to be the year to get on track, but clearly thats looking very unlikely as it stands) - I've also carried out a few modifications (mainly light related), these are pretty well documented on my instagram profile "chrisl3ete".

However, the next modification takes me to a point of beyond my own ability and immediate research via Caterham Cars has not been conclusive to date.

Therefore, please would someone assist me with how to wire toggle switches ("RTSA" from Car Builder Solutions") as indicator "stalks" replacing the existing "push to make" original Caterham buttons on an R300/R400 Duratec?

As you'll see from the photo Ive been brave (or stupid) enough to drill and place the left hand switch, but havn't figured out the wiring (yet).

Looking forward (with hope) to benefitting from the wealth of Caterham knowledge on with the Lotus 7 Club.

Thank you in advance.

Chris

Hi All,

[Jonathan Kay]

Welcome.

Private Message sent.

Jonathan

[elie boone]

The switch you have placed on your dash is just a ON-OFF switch, the third connector is to illuminate the switch light, unless you want a switch for the lh indicator and a separate switch for the rh indicators on the rh side of your steering wheel. otherwise you need one of these https://uk.farnell.com/nkk-switches/m2113tcfw01/toggle-switch-1pole-bi-col-led/dp/1187775  this is a ON-OFF-ON where the center connection is you + feed. Now a toggle switch has a smaller dia hole in the dash than that amber one so you would need a washer to compensate.

[L66TEY]

Hi Elie,
Sorry, yes I should have made myself clearer.
I want to replace the 2x push to make buttons with 2x toggle switches so as to have a left and right hand indicator switch (mini stalk).
The Toggle switch I have chosen requires a larger diameter than the original button - and I have already taken the 'plunge' and drilled the left hand side.

Hence, super keen to get the wiring sorted.

I could really do with a wiring diagram that relates to the "Relay" block for a 2010 R300 Duratec.

All help very much appreciated.

Chris

[elie boone]

L66TEY, your problem is that you want to swap a spring return switch with a non return switch, your original switch has 4 connections, i didn't measure them but my guess is that 2 are for the activation of the indicator relay and 2 for the warning light. the only way i can see this working is with a spring loaded switch and separated warning light and this for each side. Or .......................use your new switch but with all new wiring for the indicator circuit and that includes a new relais.

[L66TEY]

Hi Elie,
Yes, thats the challenge I have given myself.
I also established (thanks to Neil, aka "7 wonders of the world") that my R300 features a rather pricey piece of kit as standard, namely "INSTRUMENTATION CIRCUIT BOARD - R500/SEVEN 485 DURATEC" (39L059A) which the 4 wires from each existing Indicator Button are connected to.

In regards to the 4 wires on the existing buttons, Im pretty sure are 2x Ground, 1x LED and 1x Signal wire.

If anyone on here has more detailed knowledge about the "INSTRUMENTATION CIRCUIT BOARD" I'd be grateful to hear from them. I've also considered contacting MES, but appreciate in present times they will have more important things to think about/deal with.

I had hoped I could establish how to wire the 2x toggle switches direct to the Flasher Relay, and for that to do the trick - but the more I think about it, this solution seems less likely to work - as I expect bypassing the INSTRUMENTATION CIRCUIT BOARD would mean the "green arrows" on the RPM Dial would not flash in sequence with the indicators which for MOT purposes I believe I need to keep intact.

Hence, Im now thinking of going down the route of trying to make the 2x toggle switches produce the same output as the existing press buttons do when they are pressed to start the indicators and pressed to stop the indicators.

And I believe the solution is to use a 555 Timer with some extra circuitry, as per sketch below
(Thanks to a post on "All About Circuits) ref;
https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/generating-a-12v-0-5-sec-pulse-from-either-12v-constantly-on-or-off.102186/

Unless of course, someone can educate me on how the "INSTRUMENTATION CIRCUIT BOARD" works and if I could change an element of this to achieve my goal???

[elie boone]

I thought that the original switch had the warning light into them and not in the tacho. If your warning lights are in the tacho then it might work if you just operate your new switch manually like a spring return switch.

[L66TEY]

If by "warning lights" you are referring to the lights inside the car that switch on and off in time with the indicators, then these are both on the Tacho/RPM dial (2x green arrows) plus the push buttons have a small led in the centre which also flash in sequence with the indicators.

[L66TEY]

In regards to "operate your new switch manually like a spring return switch", I did wire them in to test (hoping for a simple life) and although the indicators came on, they didnt reliable switch off - hence this is not an option.
Plus, I want them to be like mini indicator stalks, whereby I cann feel with my index finger whether the 2x indicator switches are in the ON or OFF position.

[elie boone]

I don't know much of the inside of the black box but if the indicators don't switch off reliable could that be something to do with the time the switch is operated ? fast or slow operation of the switch or resistance ?. Finally found a illuminated toggle switch but i think it will not flash with the indicator relay even if you connect the indicator warning light to ACC https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Illuminated-Toggle-Switch-30A-SPST-12V-Green-LED-SCI-R13-423L2-/113638955920

[L66TEY]

This is the switch I have chosen:

https://www.carbuilder.com/uk/round-toggle-switch-illuminated-amber

[L66TEY]

So, it might well have taken 9 months - but Ive managed to achieve what I set out to do.

If anyone is interested in making the same modification, then I'd be happy to share details of how it can be replicated.

The two pics show the PCB and the two indicator switches installed on my 2010 R300 Duratec, plus the link is to a video I put on Instagram of the left hand indicator switch lit up, showing the sequential indicators flashing.

Video link: 
https://www.instagram.com/p/CJ9SyxnhugT/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet

My main reason for doing the mod was that I found the original small push buttons fiddly to use, plus difficult (if not impossible) to tell whether the indicators had been switched off.

Hence, with these two new switches not only do they each light up, but their position tells whether indicators are on or off.
My thought train was that it will be easy to check the position of the switches with my finger tips, instead of trying to squint to see if the dash light tell-tale green arrow is still flashing.

Hope people find this modification of interest - but also appreciate it is not "original Caterham spec".

All feedback and opinions welcome :D

 

[SLR No.77]

Nice one Chris, to most of us electronics are a no go area, just too complicated and basically small panels of black magic! Nicely impressed with what you've done.

Stu.

[L66TEY]

Thank you Stu,
Am yet to put it to a proper test on the road.
I'll try and upload a video which will hopefully show them in action.
Chris 

[L66TEY]

Update - now boxed up and harness made ready to plug into original indicator switch harness. 

[ScottR400D]

I’m sorry that I didn’t see this thread a year ago, I could have told you at the beginning that the original switches are just momentary, the relays on the control board control the indicators from then on. Never mind, you got there in the end! 

I see what you have done and why but I’ve never found the originals an issue because they self cancel in a short time if you don’t switch off and I have a smaller wheel than the OP so can see them clearly. The flashing buttons are easy to see IME, I didn’t know there were repeaters in the tacho for 2 years!  

I had an issue when my ‘15 car was less than a year old when the indicators would come on randomly. CC replaced the control board and I took the opportunity to mount it on anti vibration mounts and make it ‘quick change’. I also bought a spare board as I knew CC were no longer going to be using it and it wasn’t too expensive. 

Needless to say, 5 years on, the board has been faultless........

[L66TEY]

No worries Scott, I did indeed get there in the end :)

One of the other reasons for making the change is from my motorbiking days - as I witnessed many near misses due to riders (including myself) not cancelling indicators :O

Oddly on my 2010 Caterham I found that the indicators only self cancelled if I was stationary - will now check this out again.

Beyond that, its a waiting game for when we are allowed to go out and play again.....

[ScottR400D]

Maybe your car is different to mine but mine definitely uses the board you mentioned (INSTRUMENTATION CIRCUIT BOARD - R500/SEVEN 485 DURATEC" (39L059A)) and has always self cancelled, moving or not. My switch layout is identical to yours too.

I’m not sure how the board would know you were moving or not, actually or why you’d make it that way. If anything you want them to cancel when you’re moving rather than if stationary. 

When I had my issues I had the board in and out a few times. The original fitmemt required the heater to be moved as screws came from the front of the scuttle to hold the board rigidly against the other side. I fitted anti vibration mounts to the original screws and now the board is easily removable and better isolated. Very easy to do and I would recommend it if you haven’t already done it. 

[ScottR400D]

 

[L66TEY]

Hi Scott,
TBH - I could well be wrong in regards to my 'claim' of the indicators self cancelling whilst driving.

Not sure what year your R400D is, but I would have expected the boards to have been the same (mine's a 2010).

Ive just found these pics from when I started looking under there :D

Looks like I do have a different board to yours - notably the difference of the RS232 connector.

[ScottR400D]

Yes that does look different, though we might be looking at different ends of the board! Your relays look different too. 

i have a spare board, I’ll take a pic and post it later. My car’s a 2015. 

[L66TEY]

The "RS232" connector in the pic above is taken from Driver side footwell (RHD).

Here's a better pic taken from the Passenger side footwell.

[ScottR400D]

 

This is my spare board, it looks like yours but with a different make of relay I think.

 

 

 

 

 

[L66TEY]

Great - I know where to come if I blow it up, LOL. 
Thank you Scott.

Perhaps the relays didn't feature the text in 2010  

Chris