K-series VHPD rebuild or Duratec swap?

[Matty7]

Hello, it's been a while for me because of many things getting in the way of finishing my build. Illness etc but now I'm ready to get on with it.

I have a 2002 chassis, imperial and most of the bits to build a then Superlight R.  That includes a Caterham supplied K-Series VHPD engine.  It's used, from what we can gather did about 5000 road miles but has been sitting in storage box for 15+ years. I'm not sure if it's best to strip it down and sell off the parts that are useful to people (dry sump kit etc) or strip off the cracking pipes and do a head softness test and rebuild it with new gaskets etc (assuming internal inspection checks out).  After so long standing, I think the minimum the engine needs is renewing it's head gasket, belts etc etc...

Trouble is I'm having trouble sourcing info on what bits I would need that are suitable for a VHPD rebuild (anyone can point me in right direction would be appreciated).
So much so that I'm wondering what people think about converting the chassis to hold a Ford engine instead - has anyone done that? Aside from the obvious loom changes what sort of work am I looking at?  I assume engine mounts need changing but is there much other work?

Advice and ideas welcomed and appreciated!

 

[Wrightpayne]

I think you'll be looking at 5 figures for a duratec swap if you use a new engine. You'll need exhaust, sump, bell housing, flywheel, clutch, ecu, throttle bodies - the list goes on...

The VHPD was a good starting point - I'd be inclined to get it stripped and rebuilt by someone like DVA and get the dry sump pump refurbished at pace (I meant Titan as Tom suggested).

Alternatively just service it - belts, plugs oil etc and stick it in!

What specific items are you struggling to get info on?

Ian

[TomB]

My advice would be to keep it original and rebuild the SLR. A pucker SLR will always be more special than an SLR with a Duratec. As far as I know, the only parts becoming difficult to get hold of on the VHPD are the main bearings - but others will be better placed to advise.

Does the engine turn over my hand? You could take the sump off and teh end caps for the rods to inspect the bearings which would give you a better idea. It might be worth getting the dry sump scavenge pump overhauled by Titan - about £100. 

If the engines not been opened and been properly sealed, would you need to replace the head gasket? I suppose if you wanted to check the head for hardness you would replace it. 

If you do get rid, I may be interested for a new engine project...

[John Vine]

My advice would be to keep it original and rebuild the SLR

+1

JV

[SLR No.77]

Matty7 didn't say he'd got an SLR

[TomB]

Good spot Stu. If its not already an SLR in bits, it wont be an SLR when its finished.  It might be SLR spec, but wont be a proper SLR.  And if that's the case, changing the engine wouldn't be detrimental to keeping the car as 'original'. It would probably cost more to do, but now would be the time to fit the new engine while it all in bits.   

[Matty7]

Yes Stu is correct...it's a lot of bits that all together come to primarily a Superlight R spec, though apparently the "Stack" unit and dash was in fact R500 specification, along with a few other carbon fiber bits.  Unfortunately the original owner passed so there is no way of knowing what the plan was for sure but his wife said it was to be a track car for use in Europe as opposed to a road registered UK car. Assuming it was for France (though it may have been Italy) it was to be destined, this sort of spec would have been impossible to get.

Even though I've had the bits for a few years now, I've been kept away from it and have not even done an inventory of parts. I will get on with that soon!

Thanks for the replies, I hadn't really fully considered what would be involved converting for a ford unit. A lot more than perhaps I was opening my eyes too.  Considering I think I have pretty much all the things needed (including an Emerald unit + DVA drivability kit) to drop in the VHPD, the Duratec is starting to look expensive.

I think a proper engine service (gaskets, belts, seals, timing etc) are in order and get it started to see where I'm at.  

Since I can't find anything else out there (please do point me in the right direction if there is) can I assume that torque settings and service parts are going to be the same as any 1800 VVC engine?  

Also, can someone point me at "Titan" as I keep coming up with a company in the USA.

 

Oh, slightly off topic here but everything apart from the engine is new and unused. Gearbox and all.  
If I do a good job of cleaning up and refreshing the engine, what's peoples opinion of the chances of going for a regular registration rather than a Q plate?  I even inherited several exhausts, one of which is massive and ooks like it could get a jumbo jet through a noise test!

  

[John Vine]

Titan

And my mistake assuming you had all the bits for an SLR!

JV

[TomB]

Titan Motorsport http://www.titan.uk.net/ build the Dry Sump kit and other bits of bespoke engineering for Caterham.

Has it been registered in the UK before?  If its done 5000 road miles it must have a registration already, in which case why would it be Q plate? Id have though Caterham or VOSA would be able to help with the chassis number. If its not been road registered you'll have to go through an IVA to register it as you would a new car, in which case wouldn't you get a new plate?  

I think I remember seeing your 'barn find' on here or Pistonheads.  I certainly recall as 'SLR' more or less new and unbuild in a shed.   

[John Vine]

It seems it's the engine rather than the chassis that's done 5K miles?

If everything except the engine is new, and the engine is reconditioned to an "as new" standard, I think you should get a non-Q plate, but whether that would be year-related (to the chassis?) or current isn't too clear.  DVLA's guidance (here) says:

Get a current registration number

You can register a kit-built car, motorcycle or tricycle with a current registration number if you can prove it’s all made from new parts supplied by the manufacturer.

You can also get a current registration number for a kit-built car, motorbike or tricycle built with one reconditioned part if:

• you can show that the part has been reconditioned to an ‘as new’ standard, in line with the manufacturer’s guidelines
• the part isn’t the chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame

Your problem might be proving the provenance of the "new" parts. 

JV

   

 

[Jonathan Kay]

Have you got all the Assembly Guides and engine manuals that you need?

Jonathan

[Matty7]

Tom, it's only the engine that has been used. All the other bits are new, some still in wrap.  The chassis, gearbox, suspension etc was supplied by Caterham at end of 2002. Really very little other than seats and engine that were not with that original order.  Never built up. 
The engine came later. It's Caterham branded and obviously light use. "4500-5000 mis" was written on it in white marker though of course there is no real way to verify that is accurate, or even that the "mis" means miles.
It's not entirely impossible that the engine wasn't used at all in fact.  It was oiled up to the brim but from what I can see internally looks very clean.  Sadly it was one of the only things left exposed in a barn for 15 years and had birds crap all over it...that took care of the various pipes/belts attached to it. They may well have been unused too.

My understanding is that yes, it needs to go though IVA and built to that BUT the engine might be a sticking point as it's not "new" which means Q plate. i can make the engine look new, maybe it is, but won't be able to prove it.  When I bought the car I did so on a whim and didn't even realise a pallet of parts was going to show up with it...I thought I was just buying a barn find chassis complete with suspension. Certainly can't complain about it.

[Matty7]

John V,
Yes indeed, the proving is the difficult bit. Caterham can't help me in that regard as they can't supply a certificate of newness for something like this.
Do have quite a few delivery notes though which cover the chassis and running train (engine excluded).

I've been advised to keep a close photo album showing the parts new and of me putting it together for the IVA.  I'm suprised to find that's a thing...that they like to see photos, but there you go :-)

It is a bit of a grey area and I suspect I won't know until the time comes what sort of reg I'll get. If I guessed now I'd say Q plate or a 2002 dated one.

[SLR No.77]

Don't mess about, sell the engine.

To keep it you're investing a lot in a "new" build to end up with something that is now old hat ... and that's coming from someone who owns an original SLR! My suggestion would be to speak to both Simon Rogers and Dave Gemzoe regarding the options to fit a new Ford Ecoboost unit. You'd then have the relevant new invoices for the engine install which would help you achieve a non-Q plate, plus I expect you'll easily spend as much overhauling the VHPD engine as it would cost to buy the base Ecoboost unit.

Stu.

[Matty7]

Jonathan,
I've got a black ring bound assembly guide.  It says for de dion chassis with rover k-series variants. It mentions VVC a few times but on no page ever says VHPD. It also mentions hydraulic clutch, so I think this is a later edition.  Looks like it will cover the build though. 
Engine manuals...nope, is there something official I'm missing?

[John Vine]

Well, the "challenges" ahead include at least these:

• DVLA recognise the engine as a "part", and the only used "part"
• The engine is reconditioned to "as new" in line with CC's guidelines, and you can prove this
• You can prove the "newness" of all the other parts (receipts, etc -- do you have these?)

I suggest you discuss all this with DVLA (and I wish you luck).

Re the photo record of the build -- yes, they insisted I did that for my 2008 build.  I think it's a way of showing that you're an amateur builder (a prerequisite of being permitted to follow the IVA process).

JV

 

[Matty7]

Stu,

That was the the though train I was on....build it for now and the future rather than past.  Trouble is it's not just the engine and going that route is increasinly looking every bit as expensive and time consuming as selling the whole lot off, chassis and all and then buying a later model car.

So much to think about!

[Matty7]

JV,

Trust me...I'm definitely an amateur!

[John Vine]

You'd then have the relevant new invoices for the engine install which would help you achieve a non-Q plate

But, surely, only if you can prove the "newness" of the other parts?  (And it seems that that is going to be the show-stopper here, unless Matty7 has all the receipts.)

JV

[SLR No.77]

The engine has value to sell, certainly there'd be a few of us interested in it complete or in bits who have reason to stay with the K-Series. If you then add whatever you'd have spent refurbishing the engine, to what you can get or it (or the bits separately) you'll have a fair amount to spend on an alternative unit. Whether you then decide to sell the chassis etc is your choice but in 2017 using a VHPD for a new install is plain cuckoo.

[Jonathan Kay]

I've got a black ring bound assembly guide.  It says for de dion chassis with rover k-series variants. It mentions VVC a few times but on no page ever says VHPD. It also mentions hydraulic clutch, so I think this is a later edition.  Looks like it will cover the build though. 
Engine manuals...nope, is there something official I'm missing?

Send me a Private Message with your email address and I'll forward you a copy of stuff that might be relevant.

Jonathan

[Wrightpayne]

Matty,

where abouts are you? It might be worth one of the regulars popping around to appraise what you have e.g. a complete DS system with bell tank and sump would be worth well over a grand, probably 1500 as no longer available as a kit. All the K bits will soon add up and net off the Ford install costs.

Ian

[Matty7]

Ian, nice idea, but I'm actually up a mountain down in the south of France!
Nice location to do a build if not the most practicable.

 

[Jonathan Kay]

... I'm actually up a mountain down in the south of France!

i'm jealous! Which one?

Jonathan

[Matty7]

The néouvielle massif....lovely clean air and lots of twisty roads!