Normal K - Series Engine noise when cold

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A.Waterfield
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Normal K - Series Engine noise when cold

Hi Guys, I'm rebuilding a crashed 1.6 K-Series engined car,  has fast road cams and vernier pulleys.  Its sounds abit knocky/tappety  from the top end and wondered if this is normal when cold,  i have  a video here on youtube of it running for a brief moment, penny for your thoughts.  engine was also resting on the chassis so maybe some noise from this contact?  also it seems to have sat for about a year without being started. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNxP5xB7PVE

i did run it a bit longer later on and as it warmed it did quieten down a lot. still  let me know what you think.

revilla
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Hi,

Always hard to identify noises on YouTube videos but a few thoughts;

1) That's definitely not how a happy K Series usually sounds.

2) If the engine has been standing for a long time without turning, one or more of the hydraulic lifters (assuming it's not been converted to mechanical profile cams, which I doubt with the standard plastic plenum) will have been under load from an open valve and may well have leaked down over time. This leads to a very tappetty sound on startup which improves as the oil pressure inflates the lifter to take up the lash.

3) Not 100% from the video but there could have been some piston slap noise there too. Do you know if the engine has forged pistons? Again, an engine that has had that kind of money spent on it would usually have had the intake system upgraded too, but forged pistons tend to slap and rattle a lot when cold but this noise fades as the engine warms up and the pistons expand to take up their normal running size and shape.

Lifter noise will probably only show up on the first start. If you start it again now from cold, has it gone back to being noisy or does it still sound better? Piston slap noise will come back on every cold start.

Can you post a similar video of what it sounds like when warmed up?

SV VVC 170 - 170.4 bhp @ 7100 rpm - 142.4 ft.lb. @ 4900 rpm

elie boone
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Before i used Champion 5W40 full synthetic oil but now i use Valvoline 5W40 full synt. and it's much quiter cold or hot.

SM25T
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Dont want it too warm without coolant ?
revilla
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Crikey no, I'd missed the obvious lack of a radiator! I really wouldn't run it at all like that. K Series engines are so easily damaged beyond repair by overheating as the alloy of the head and block anneals.

SV VVC 170 - 170.4 bhp @ 7100 rpm - 142.4 ft.lb. @ 4900 rpm

A.Waterfield
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temp was monitored very cautiously indeed and it was run with a full coolant system all be it a no radiator affair, it did quieten down a lot but really couldn't run it for long, if in doubt err on the side of caution.  still being cautious I'm going to investigate the engine further.  

It has stood for a year as best I can fathom.  It is believed oilyhands 'DVA Power' has done the work but without a customer name Dave has struggled to find any record.

Having removed it now for chassis repair I can see now it hasn't any flow work to the head, so solid lifters and wild mods are unlikely,   the body was cut for a 4-2-1 manifold, but had a standard exhaust  and the bolts for the manifold were not particularly tight,  so it may be possible it had some level of returning to stock before it went to the insurers assessor.  Speculation I know..

Sounded to me a like it could have been piston slap, sounded more like that than hydraulic tappets,  more like a diesel idle than a petrol,  again it did quieten down,  damn forgot to do another video. :(

Now its all out I am wondering about an engine swap to 1.8 or head upgrade, I have just purchased some Rover VHPD throttle bodies and am thinking wether or not to upgrade the engine further whilst going through the expense of getting it mapped K6  ecu etc.

The car at some point was a members car, H7 VRN previously GK53 FZT, I'd love to find them and get some background on the car.

Cheers for the input thus far guys!

2004 K Series in Blue - Fixing a bent caterham 7 and looking for information.

garybee
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I wouldn't bother looking for noises if I knew the engine was touching the chassis.  As you've said though, It'll be fine to run for a short while without a rad' so long as there's water in it.

The engine mount must be really trashed if it's allowing the engine to sit that far out.  It has to be worth changing that before looking further.  Or is it touching because it's bent?

Nick Bassett
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If you are planning to run TBs then it would be very worthwhile having the head ported to maximise the benefit. You will then probably have to fit forged pistons as well... talk to DVA Dave as he will best be able to advise you.

Bolter, bolter, full power...
sforshaw
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I'd be very careful running the engine without the full cooling system fitted. Although your temperature gauge may be showing very little temperature in the engine the gauge sender is located in the coolant rail at the top of the engine, without the radiator fitted the level of any coolant in the rail will easily have dropped and the sender being in air will not give a reading.

My two-penneth ...

The direction I'd take would be to repair everything that's needed to get the car on the road, engine mount, radiator, anything else you can find that needs to be repaired to prepare it for an MOT ... I'd then get it to a friendly test center for an MOT and ask for the opportunity to get underneath the car to have a good look at everything while it's up on the ramp, mine let's me spend a little time cleaning underneath while it's raised up. You then have 12 months with an MOT to make any changes you want.

Then ... I'd decide what you really want the car to be? An R300 k-series with 160 bhp is a real sweet spot in the range and you can create something very similar with the throttle bodies you've bought and an Emerald ecu, and avoid major engine work. Honestly it's a financial slippery slope going for more power and if you really want SLR performance you'd be better buying, er, an SLR!

Match the cylinder head inlet ports to the throttle bodies which can be done with the engine in the car, fit a proper long primaries exhaust and Emerald and get it set up properly, ideally by someone who knows and has worked on the Emerald. You'll have a car then that drives like it was intended to, sounds sweet and has as much power as you'll ever need on the road. Additionally does it have a lightweight flywheel? If not it'd be a worthwhile upgrade but will mean the engine coming out.

This is only my opinion, but having seen big money spent on high power k-series cars I know you could easily spend 2 - 3 times what it'll cost you to stop at an Emerald and throttle bodies. 

As an aside, did you get the o/e air filter with the throttle bodies? The original was an ITG filter with a flange designed to fit with the SLR TB backplate and it's the easiest option without doing a lot of messing about, plus it'll fit easily under the bonnet.

Stu.

Lotus Seven Club AR Working Group

The register for all numbered limited-edition Caterhams ....... www.thecaterhamregister.net ...... www.instagram.com/thecaterhamregister

A.Waterfield
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Stu/Nick,  thats pretty much the plan.  Once Arch has repaired the chassis, I'll get it rebuilt and roadworthy. I'm not looking for monster power, but think 160-170 would be a good place to be.  Not particularly interested in full on rebuilds forge etc.  mentally was thinking to open the inlets up to suit the TB's while the engine is out, and when i have all the right parts (ecu, 4 branch) getting it all mapped and enjoy.  

I'll look into the air filters, the item I have bought has no filter on it.  I assumed I'd have to cut the bonnet what ever, but if i read your wording correctly it will fit witin the confines of the existing hood?

Cheers for the input gents
Alex

2004 K Series in Blue - Fixing a bent caterham 7 and looking for information.

sforshaw
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Yes it will fit without cutting the bonnet but the ITG filter is specific for the throttle bodies, I'd maybe post a wanted ad and see if you can source one.

Stu.

Edited to add a couple of photos pulled off the Internet ...

Lotus Seven Club AR Working Group

The register for all numbered limited-edition Caterhams ....... www.thecaterhamregister.net ...... www.instagram.com/thecaterhamregister