Type 9 Gearbox

[Weavie]

I am rebuilding my 1997 1700 Crossflow Supersprint and I'd like to change from the Type 2 4-speed box to the Type 9 5-speed box to drop the revs on the road. Has anyone else made this change and, if so, what do I need to do in the tunnel? I know that I have to shorten the propshaft and change the splined end and change the gearstick arrangement but not sure about the metal bashing required elsewhere?

Any help, with or without photos, would be greatly appreciated before I get myself in a mess!

[Tazio]

Have a chat with Bruce at Arch, he can tell you if there are any changes that need to be made to the chassis.

[Wrightpayne]

There is also a spacer needed between the gearbox and bellhousing IIRC.

https://caterhamparts.co.uk/fittings/2505-spacer-bellhousing-5-speed-gearbox-ford-crossflow.html?search_query=gearbox+spacer&results=3

[Weavie]

Hi Tazio

 

Do you have any contact details please?

Thanks

[Tazio]

Bruce Robinson at Arch is on 01489-459661.

[Duckpit]

There is a kit available, I converted my 95 about 10years ago. I bought the kit from a member and proceeds went to nuke the luke, I will try to find out who sold the kit, but am sure another member will come up with it.

If I remember rightly , the old gearbox bearer is removed and the prefabricated ally kit is riveted into the tunnel the fabricarion includes a new gearbox bearer so that it is in the right position for the type 9. Yes the prop has to be shortened but can remember doing anything to the spline.

But the 4 speed is a much nicer box !!!

[Duckpit]

OK it was Brent Chiswick who used to sell the kit, this was on the old forum:

http://www.lotussevenclub.com/NuketheLeuk/tabid/110/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/130/Nuke-the-Leuk-2008--Lap-3.aspx

You will also need angle drive for type 9 to speedo, it may also be useful to cut hole in tunnel so you can access the angle drive. You will also need to recalibrate speedo

[elie boone]

I don't think that you need any tunnel modification, you do need to take your prop shaft to a pro as the 4 speed UJ is smaller than the one for a 5 speed, so they need to chop of the old one. You also need a new bell housing the one from an RS 2000 is the cheapest but you will need to take an angle grinder to it to fit and you won't be able to use the rubber gaiter to protect the clutch arm side from entering dirt or stones.

And you need the spacer between g.box and bell housing and an angle drive for the speedo and if the g,box didn't came out of a Caterham you will need to shorten the gear lever.

[Duckpit]

Elie hi,

I certainly had to modify my tunnel in order to accomodate the change in position of the gearbox mounting and to allow access to the speedo drive. But the modification does not alter the shape of the tunnel.

The best place to buy the bellhousing is from Tiger Racing and it does not need alteration, I have one in mine.

 

http://www.tigerracing.com/shop/home/115-bell-housing-alloy.html

 

Nick

[Wrightpayne]

linky

http://www.tigerracing.com/shop/home/115-bell-housing-alloy.html

[7 wonders of the world]

I might have a rose joined quick shift gear lever, BM if your interested

[BlackSeven]

I have a 1988 (originlly crossflow) S3 that was originally 4 speed and has been converted to Type 9. A few pointers:

1. Research gear ratio's. A standard 4 cyl Type 9 has a fairly useless 3.6 ish:1 first gear and a V6 Type 9 has a marginally better 3.3ish:1 first gear. Depending on what 4 speed you have the type 9 first gear ratio may be a major backwards step. A "long first" type 'box is ideally needed  - available from any of the usual specialists but the cream of the crop IMHO is the SPC semi helical which gives the best of all worlds and a 2.47 (from memory):1 first which is the same as the 4 speed "rocket" box and perfect in a crossflow 7.

2. Bell housing: whatever you are using with your 4 speed will bolt straight up to your type 9.

3. Spacer plate: only required if you are using a long input shaft V6 type type 9. The spacer basically takes up the extra input shaft length and puts the input shaft in the same position as a 4 speed input shaft in relation the clutch.

4. Gearbox mounting. A simple steel fabricated mounting is required to alter the existing 4 speed mounting position to suit the type 9. I have a dimensioned diagram for the one fitted to mine which I can copy and send to you if you would like it. If you have  some basic fabrication skills and access to some steel box section and a mig welder you will have it knocked up in an hour or so. Dimensions may however require adjusting slightly depending on your choice of short shaft / long shaft and spacer / no spacer.

5. Tunnel Mods: I don't recall any other than slight changes to the gear lever hole.

6. Speedo angle drive - will be required.

7. Prop splines: same for both boxes but shaft needs to be cut and shut and re-balanced.

8. Clutch splines: same for both boxes.

I think that's about it. I have had a number of different Type 9's in mine as well as a number of different engines (crossflow now changed to now a Zetec ) so if I can help in any way let me know. Once you start to offer everything up it all becomes fairly straightforward!

Rob

[Wrightpayne]

Re point 2 - didnt the sport 4 speed box have a cast integral bell housing?

Re point 6 - is converting to programmable electronic speedo a consideration as the angle drives are quite expensive new. 

[BlackSeven]

Various ford boxes had variants with integral bellhousings including a rare (and much less desirable) type 9 version. Separate iron bellhousings are readily available for around £25. Cast ally ones are much nicer in a 7 and the best bet is probably either Tiger as has been suggested or SPC. Original RS2000 ally ones are fetching virtually as much as a new aftermarket one and has the double sided starter mounting which runs very close to the chassis on an S3 depending on gearbox final position.

As regards electronic or mechanical speedo its probably swings and roundabouts cost wise as I assume there is a mechanical speedo in place at present that would have to be changed. Personally I'd keep it simple and original (plus retain the mileage reading) and source an angle drive. I think they are the thick end of £100 new but do crop up used on Ebay at about a third of this. A wanted ad on here would probably yield one too.

Rob

[Wrightpayne]

This place looks good - they appear to be able to build different ratio angle drives to re-calibrate the speedo.

http://www.speedograph-richfield.com/html/rgb1030.html

[OliverSedlacek]

I converted mine in about 2000. The type 9 isn't really as nice as the type 2, and if you don't pick a type 9 with suitable ratios it will definitely disappoint. From memory you need to consider the following:

1. Chassis mods for gearbox mount, Arch did mine because it was with them for some restoration anyway, so I can't comment on the details.

2. I got my type 9 from BGH as they offer one with a long first and a special 0.89:1 fifth. I strongly recommend it as the standard 0.82:1 fifth is useless.

3. Get an alloy bellhousing. The type 9 is heavier than the type 2 and you don't need even more weight to blunt your car.

4. You need a shortened gearstick and a new transmission runnel cover with the gear stick hole further forward.

5. I got the clutch friction plate from Burtons. They were very helpful in advising which one to get.

6. You will need a spacer between the gearbox and the bellhousing.

If you just want longer gearing your alternative is to change the differential ratio. R&R are the 'go to' people, and you can probably afford an LSD for the cost of a gearbox upgrade.

 

[BlackSeven]

The requirement for the gearbox to bellhousing spacer is dependent upon what length of type 9 input shaft you intend to use. If you use a spacer with (the far more widely available) short shaft box then your input shaft splines are unlikely to be properly engaged with the driven plate. Generally a long shaft box needs the  spacer but short shaft shaft box  - no spacer. You obviously need to factor in gear lever position, gearbox mounting and prop shortening into the equation but there are plenty of sevens using a short shaft box and no spacer; there are however a lot of possible combinations (different clutch heights and at least 3 input shaft lengths) so its always best to measure up.

First gear ratio's need careful consideration (alongside final drive and engine torque) as even a 2.66:1 "long first" isn't that "long" in such a lightweight car as a Seven. The original ford 4 speed "rocket" ratios included approx 2.5:1 first gear. I have an SPC gearkit with a 2.48:1 first which is fantastic but with hindsight a 2.29 would have been even better!

Rob

[Weavie]

Hi Rob

Sorry for the slow reply but I was out of contact all day yesterday. My sincere thanks for all the fantastic comments form everyone. It has really helped to clarify what I need to do.

I would like to take you up on the offer of the dimensioned drawing. I am working with a guy who is a fabricator so we should be able to replicate the item.

I was planning to buy the Type 9 with the same gearing as my current box from BGH. My current box is great to drive up to 4th but I just want to be able to drop the revs in top gear on long journeys otherwise it becomes quite wearing on the ears and nerves!. I will only do the occasional track day so my aim is to achieve a good fun road car. I was going to use the short input shaft version without a spacer and these guys can modify the gear lever mechanism so that I end up with the gear stick in the same position as now. The car already has a 3.9 Quaife LSD mounted onto an Ital live axle.

They have now leant me an empty box to use as a template which will be ideal with the drawing you kindly offered.

From what I've seen so far, the existing mounting will need to be removed as already indicated by everyone, but I still have the following questions?

1. The output spline from the Type 9 seems to be a larger diameter than the Type 2, so I will need to get a new end welding on my existing but shortened propshaft?

2. When putting the Xflow block together with the Type 9 box, the original blanking plate is the wrong shape especially around the starter motor area. Is there an alternative plate that I can buy? Alternatively, will the Tiger bellhousing overcome this problem and allow me to use the existing blanking plate?

3. Does this also mean that I need to buy a different starter motor to suit - in which case, which one?

4. BGH said that I would need to use a Sierra clutch plate assembly and I can buy a kit from Northern Components?

I agree with the comment about the speedo but I unfortunately damaged the original speedo during removal and Caerbont said it was irreparable. I have opted for an electronic version so the speedo issues should be painless. In fairness the original speedo set-up that came with the car never worked properly and spent most of it's time swinging wildly from one speed to another so i was never quite sure where I was - nothing to do with my driving, honestly!

Any help on the above questions would be greatly appreciated.

Steve

[BlackSeven]

Steve,

I'm home tomorrow evening and will dig out the drawing and get it scanned. 

There is a bolt on gearlever turret extension that you can buy from Rally Design and others that moves the lever position back by about 5". I am using one and it works well.

Sorry for my confusion in my original post about spline diameters; my 7 is a bit of a mongrel and has had at least 3 different types of Ford 'box in it! It may have originally had a Type 2 in it but this was long gone by the time I got it! The type 2 does  indeed have smaller splines at both ends so you will need a different prop front end and a different driven plate. I think you need the 190mm Sierra 1.6 driven plate but Burton' s would be ideal to advise on clutch component choice as someone has previously suggested.

I assume the blanking plate is the dust shield; I don't use one but Tiger will no doubt advise if needed with their bellhousing. As regards starter I think the standard xflow pre engaged starter will bolt up to the Tiger bellhousing but I'd also check this with them.

If you are changing to an electronic speedo anyway, you can either get BGH to supply you with a Type 9 fitted with the original type Ford electronic speedo transducer or alternatively Burtons do an adaptor and sensor for about £60 that converts a mechanical speedo drive to electronic.

Rob

[OliverSedlacek]

I cut the plate between the block and bellhousing many years ago so that I can get the sump off in situ. I made a new lower plate from some light gauge ali sheet just to keep the crap out of the clutch and starter ring gear. I'm also still using the original starter motor.

[Weavie]

Hi Everyone

Thank you for all the great info which I have read through and decided on the following;

I contacted Brian Robinson at Arch Engineering and he is going to make me a new bracket for the Type 9 gearbox and send me instructions on how to remove the old and fit the new. I will buy a E2 heavy duty box from BGH with a longer 1st gear and a 0.87 fifth gear which I think will give me a decent road car primarily. BGH will also extend the gear change back to its current position. The box will have a short input shaft and no spacer. I looked at the Tiger bellhousing and it was great but another £170 which I decided to spend elsewhere.

I have bought a sandwich plate from Retro ford which is also one piece. The starter motor will be the original and I will buy a Sierra clutch kit from Northern Components.

The propshaft will be cut and shortened with a Sierra larger diameter UJ to suit. I've been recommended to JW Eng at Bexleyheath to do this for me once I have the new length measured.

It will have a digital speedo which I had already ordered from Caerbont together with a sensor that they can supply. BGH will blank off the speedo hole and I just need to re-connect the reversing light switch.

If anyone sees a glaring mistake on the above decisions, then please let me know.

Now I just need to make it happen once the body, etc., is back from the paint shop, during which time I am also moving house to Weymouth in Dorset. Nothing like a challenge. Again, thank you all very much.

Weavie

[7 wonders of the world]

Rather than compromising with a BGH box which still has a poor first gear raion for a 7 I suggest you speak with Steve at SP Components and have him build you a box with one of his kits which use either a 2.48 or 2.29 first and either .87 or .82 fifth.

 

[oilyhands]

There are a variety of BGH boxes , the rocket 5 for example is a belter, it too has a choice of 1st gears and 5th gears to suit your requirements. 

Oily

[Weavie]

I went to see Steve at SP Components yesterday and he is bringing out a new gear kit that he says would suit a Caterham for speed of gear change, reliability and it weighs less than current boxes. Only problem is that it is not due out until late March/ early April which is too late for me.

Certainly knows his stuff though!

[Drumster]

I changed my standard 5 speed gearset for one of SPCs rocket ratios 15 months ago after 'suffering' the standard ratios for 16 years!! All I can say is that I wish I'd done it so much earier.

Only 3rd and 4th remain the same, but with a longer 1st and 2nd and a shorter 5th I find the ratios are  evenly spread out. Mind you I have a torquey Zetec circa 200bhp. Even with the longer 1st, I opted for the 2.29, it still takes a degree of self control to prevent it spinning off the line when sprinting.