Help request - New/ Recent 420 R Owners

[CtrMint]

Hi,

I'm looking to compare my 420 R with other recent cars.  I'm suffering major issues with the kit and particularly the radiator, top hose and catch can.   I would appreciate the opportunity to compare.  Of particular interest is S3 cars.

Existing thread.

https://www.lotus7.club/forum/techtalk/catch-can-questions problem areas

Thanks

[John Vine]

Bearing in mind the lack of response so far, it would be worth posting the same request in ChitChat (with a link back to this thread) so as to reach a wider audience.

JV

 

[ScottR400D]

I’ve done quite a search of blogs etc. Can’t find any recent but certainly cars built up to a year ago all seem to have ‘old’ rad, OC and nose. 

One thing;Classic and Sports cars are listing a number of 2018 420s for sale. Might be worth calling them and asking for an under bonnet pic. 

None of the cars they list have the two aperture nose which is meant to go with the Race Rad/Oc combined. 

[Collidog]

Any good? 2018 420R SV

[ScottR400D]

Exactly how old? Clearly still got the ‘old’ rad system. 

I wonder when, exactly, the changes were made.......and why. 

[Collidog]

Factory build was finished May 2018

[ScottR400D]

Thanks. So the change is very recent. 

Has a reason been given for it? It wouldn’t surprise me at all if it was done because of parts shortages at the time and they revert to the old method soon leaving a few unfortunate owners with bodged arrangements. 

 

 

 

[John Vine]

According to CC Online Parts today, there's stock of the regular Duratec/Sigma rad.  Perhaps there was a hiccup in supply?  I wonder what new 420R factory builds and kits are getting?   And yes, I'd love to know the reason behind the switch.

JV

[ChrisC]

That's already been posted in correspondence with CC on the other thread.    The new rad/oil cooler combination is more efficient than the old design, and hence the reason for the swap.    

Has anyone had overheating problems with their 420R / R400D?

Normally I read about uses blanking off the oil coolers over winter, but I might have missed something, maybe a problem in hotter climates?    

[John Vine]

...more efficient...

Well, what Simon Lambert actually wrote was:

"Earlier this year we adopted the Seven 420R race car radiator and oil cooler for the 420R road car, replacing the original standard radiator plus traditional front-mounted oil cooler.  This was done for product-improvement; the race part offering superior performance."

I guess it's debatable whether "superior performance" equates to "more efficient".  But either way, Simon omits to say anything about the race nosecone being part of the "product improvement".  To my mind, the race rad and race nosecone are a matched pair.

Normally I read about uses blanking off the oil coolers over winter...

I blank mine off all year round.  That would include European travel (up to 35C) but not trackdays.  Perhaps the 420R racers were reporting problems with the original set-up?

JV 

[ScottR400D]

Other than the first 3 rads supplied having leaks, I’ve not had a single issue with the cooling of my R400D. I don’t use over the core winter months but on road and track it’s been fine. 

Frankly, I don’t believe Lambert’s answer. 

[tomwood]

I’m inclined to agree, I don’t buy the ‘improving things’ line either. Why fix something that clearly isn’t broken and has been proven to work.

I suspect there is some kind of supply issue. Perhaps the original supplier has upped the cost to CC or the race ones are cheaper and they make a better margin.

Over cooling rather than under cooling seems be the norm for those using the old arrangement but I can’t see CC feeling this is reason enough for ‘improving’ the design.

[ScottR400D]

And looking at the new arrangement I can’t see it cooling much better or worse in any case. Assuming you can get it all to fit. 

[Jim 123]

It would be logical to put the change down to parts rationalisation as it looks like the 620 uses the same rad as the latest spec for 420 race.

[ScottR400D]

Are you suggesting they’ll stop stocking the ‘old’ parts? They’re in stock at the moment. 

[Jim 123]

I don't think that's a worry Scott, but in terms of CC scheduling radiators for factory car build, or new kits it would make sense.  They will no doubt be looking for commonisation on as many components in their BOM that they can.

[John Vine]

...as it looks like the 620 uses the same rad as the latest spec for 420 race.

Except that the 620 rad seems to be a mirror image of the 420R race -- or have they simply reversed the photos by mistake?

JV

[ScottR400D]

I wasn’t worried about stock of the old parts in the future, I already have a spare rad and as has been said, parts could be sourced elsewhere fairly easily. 

I do think a little too much credit is being given to CC’s inventory planning ability by suggesting it’s about scheduling and managing component types. In any case they’ve introduced more new parts, with the 420R nose and upgrade parts, than they’re losing  

Also, as has been pointed out already, the 620 has a completely different nose to that supplied to the OP. It’s fairly clear why the 620 has that combination of rad/OC and nose. 

Its not at all clear why a 420 would need it, even less clear why a mix of the 620 rad/OC and the old nose would be suitable. 

[CharlesElliott]

They aren't a mirror image as the bleed screw is in the same place but the inlet / outlet are in different positions. But then again, they are different prices too!

It feels like Caterham didn't have any of the individual rads in stock so they sent the combined rad instead without having fully 'engineered it'. Maybe they assumed it would fit but are finding out on the line that it doesn't actually fit very well.

[7 wonders of the world]

Guessing CC are trying to reduce their SKU count and therefore stockholding value - just as Henry Ford did with paint...

[7 wonders of the world]

Sad to see the car is For Sale now.....

You could sort this with the Alicool rad option and use your nose as previously mentioned........ easy,

That said I do believe CC should be all over this like a rash and have the correct part couriered to you instead of buggering about and trying to mask the problem with PR speak.

A 7, on the IOM, on a summer evening .............       

......do you really want to let CC deprive you of that......?

 

[ScottR400D]

CC should be ashamed of themselves. 

I would say again, if I were the OP I’d immediately pay the £400 for an ‘old style’ rad and oil cooler and finish the car properly. 

It’ll be a lot less expensive in the long run. 

 

 

[CtrMint]

Guys I'm not sure what to say.  

I'm going into the garage on an evening to try and work on the car, but coming out swearing at the car and feeling totally frustrated having achieved nothing.  For sure the radiator is a massive joke and you are correct CC's response is likely to be bull, though they did offer to swap the rad if I was prepared to wait.  I declined as I couldn't face another fitment of the oil hoses.  

I tried the final fitment of the front ARB and headlights this week.  I can only get one side of the arb in, and sorry I've withheld from swearing but, but there is f*ck all chance of getting that grommet in the head light bracket.  I resorted to drilling/grinding the bracket hole wider but that hasn't worked either, I'll need to get another 37GBP!.   The one head light I have been working on now looks like its done 50k miles. Luckily CC sent two extras by mistake, their failure sometimes pays off!

So that's basically how I feel, there is no enjoyment now, I don't want to finish it, other than to remove parts from the house or get the car on the road.  Unfortunately every job becomes a nightmare, it just pisses me off.  Nothing works with it.  A couple of owners have suggested give it time, but you just go back to the same issues.

Now you might be wondering if I'm being impatient or not giving the car chance, and possibly not prepared to work to resolve issues.  That's not true.  I've worked on and modified many of the cars I've owned and while this has included typical stuff which might be considered easy its not always been the case.  For example I replaced the OEM suspension on my DC5 for a set of Bilstein B16 from a Civic EP3 which work great.  Unfortunately the rear top mounts and bush inserts aren't compatible.  The supplier didn't know this or have a solution, and I must have trial fitted the suspension at least 3 times while researching the comparison between the DC5 and EP3 standard parts before I worked out which additional components I needed.  I know this isn't rocket science, but for a complete novice, I stuck at it and got to the bottom of the problem.

Additionally I swapped the rear camber arms for adjustable units.  My DC5 has HIDS with the leveler float on the camber arm.  The after market item didn't support that so I had to template a new design and get it fabricated.  I designed it and it works a treat, again I overcame that.

My point here is the Caterham just seems a botch of crappy parts which don't fit or are poorly designed and the consumer is left to fudge a solution.  Why is the grommet on the headlamp so dam tight etc.  Revise it, its not practical and it is important, its an IVA requirement.  The accelerator pedal isn't right, so lets bend it! I've never mentioned this in a previous post but what the hell is plywood doing on a boot floor.  I got a carbon dash and a boot floor made of plywood ffs!

Sorry I think my frustration is leaking out here, and I certainly don't wish to come across poorly, everyone here has been fantastic, its not your fault. But the sum of the parts here just leads me to say what the hell am I doing with this car.  If I was in the UK I'd get it collected and completed, but I'm not and doing so will be terribly expensive from the IOM.  So I feel my best option is to sell up, take the hit and go back to having fun in my Exige. 

I'm ready to put the tunnel carpet and top in, but just can't find the motivation to tackle what should be a simple task.  Also the knee trims, they need to go in, but how the hell do you wedge them between the chassis and the rubber trim?  Just can't find the motivation as I know it will turn into a botch.

For what it's worth, before posting the advert I wrote to Derek asking for a fully built set of lights/bracket I could bolt on.  If by some remote chance it comes through it might restore some motivation, but I think there is zero chance.  I did offer to buy, but that was before I saw the pricing.

[John Vine]

Sorry to hear of your total frustration, Mark.  Like others have said, you've been badly let down.

If you are truly looking to sell, my advice would be to stop the build immediately, for two reasons: (a) a potential purchaser may well want to complete the build him(her)self, and (b) assembling without motivation is sure to lead to a less than perfect result.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

JV

[CtrMint]

Thanks John.

I don't think it will result in less than perfect work, it might be part of the problem why I don't accept some of the topics discussed.  I'm the sort of guy that hand details under their car at least once a year.

I do need to get the car completed or sold as it's blocking my Exige in.  I have a small double garage with worktops in, which means there isn't a fantastic amount of room and I've only managed to achieve sufficient space by using dollies to push the Exige into the corner.  I can't get it out without moving the Caterham out.  I also can't swap them around due to the work tops and internal door, the Exige being a V6 is too long.  

I do recognize its probably going to take time to sell, and I do want to be transparent, for this reason I'm reluctant to sell via PH which tends to be a nightmare of speculators.  Worst time just before Xmas too.